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Thread: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

      
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    Default Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    I don't know if this has been posted, but it has been discussed here several times. It's nice to see the local media finally bring it to light.


    http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_751926.html

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Good article. Obviously alot of assumptions but that's all we can do when the books are closed. The Brewers are shooting their wad this season to try and win before the inevitable mass exodus. But overall it was a good comparison.

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    The Brewrs comparison something tghat has been done a few times, I know I did a comparison just using gate figures and such that could be found on the internet for a whi9le was a thorn to DK. A thorn to the point where Frank coonelly was slapping him with common sense facts and for some reason it took DK a little longer. It's now nice to see that DK finally gets why the Pirates could never spend as much as the Brewers and even left out the larger amount of parking revenues the Brewers recieve and the higher concession prices that weren't included into the increased gates..

    Thats a good point, Shaker about the Brewers busting their wads right now. I'm not sure that it's ever a good decision to go into the red, but the oe thing the Brewers have win or lose is a high percentage of people flowing through the gate, so they could cut payroll down for a year or 2 and get bak into the black. That's something that teams like the Pirates, Rays can't afford to do and rumor has it the Reds are at that point right now.

    the only problem I had with the Article was :

    The Nutting ownership has done some dumb things since taking over in 2007, and I've taken pains to point those out: Nutting never should have paid that $20 million in 2008 to cover taxes for the minority owners and converted equity, a move made primarily to protect his stake. He should have been better informed and more aggressive in preventing the Matt Wieters and Miguel Sano fiascos.
    1. It was a little over $10 million that was to cover the federal and state taxes on the profits made in 2006 and 2007. It was voted on and approved by something like 4 of the 6 board members at the time according to Frank Coonelly.

    2. The other $10 million was a repayment of the loan that was taken out in 2003 by the Nuttings to save McClatchy's hide that was in trouble with MLB over carrying a higher debt level than they approve which caused the trade of Aramis Ramirez etc... I'm not sure when it was supposed to be okay to not replay loans even if you take out a loan, it stil needs repaid.

    3. Nutting took the interest from those loans and instead of converting into cash to pocket, converted it into equity in the team

    From what I remember, the Pirates could run into another issue with having to pay off owners taxes on profits in the future if it came down to it as it is I swear the last vote by the board stipulated that they had to pay those taxes on their own and it ****ed some minority owners off if you remember reading about some owners being ****ed the past couple of years, this is it.

    I don't really see any of this as any sort of issue. This is the internal business side of sports that I'm sure you see a lot of teams deal with but none openly in the public

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    I'd be willing to bet alot of Dejan's assumptions are on the conservative side which would mean more or less that the Brewers are really shooting their entire load on this season to win it all, and when it doesn't happen, I am gonna Maybe this article will now shut some of the critics up about how Nutting "doesn't " spend money, because what I took from the article was that with Nuttings approach, there will be more more money to keep our own players, which is the main focus.
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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Very good read. DK seems to have developed a brain since he left the PG. Of course it's too late for Smizik.

    This article was dismissed out of hand by the local idiots of the Smizik blog. Of course there was some math involved so I'm sure people like Daquido, BFD etc didn't understand it.

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    One of the things I find interesting about the amount of money that the Pirates are spending in the drafts is in complete contradiction to what Frank Coonelly was all about before he joined the organization. It was his job while in the commissioner's office to keep spending in line with a self-imposed slot system. Now that he's on the other side, he's one of the biggest spenders. I imagine it's been mentioned someplace, but I still find it an interesting tidbit.

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Quote Originally Posted by exNCite View Post
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    One of the things I find interesting about the amount of money that the Pirates are spending in the drafts is in complete contradiction to what Frank Coonelly was all about before he joined the organization. It was his job while in the commissioner's office to keep spending in line with a self-imposed slot system. Now that he's on the other side, he's one of the biggest spenders. I imagine it's been mentioned someplace, but I still find it an interesting tidbit.
    The other part of that is I would bet that Bob received a glowing recomendation from the budman about hiring Coonely to begin with! I remember reading a quote, where Coonely was quizzed about this very subject and said, he wouldn't shy away from going over slot for players. I would venture to say that his picture is now in Bud's office under the listing, Public Enemy #1!!

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Quote Originally Posted by indybucfan View Post
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    The other part of that is I would bet that Bob received a glowing recomendation from the budman about hiring Coonely to begin with! I remember reading a quote, where Coonely was quizzed about this very subject and said, he wouldn't shy away from going over slot for players. I would venture to say that his picture is now in Bud's office under the listing, Public Enemy #1!!
    Bud actually recommended Frank Coonelly as CEO to Bob Nutting, so it was absolutely a gigantic influence on the decision if not THE influence on the decision to hire Frank.

    I'm with you and Ex, that it's pretty remarkable that Frank was Mr.Slot guy and is now pretty much Mr.Anti Slot guy. As far as the Pirates have been concerned since 2008, the "Slot" has stood as nothing more than a number to show how much we've gone beyond it Self imposed "slots" are fairly useless and becoming more useless as the Pirates continue to use the system for our need.

    There's rumors as well that the next CBA won't see a hard cap/hard slotting system which would mean, not much with the draft will change
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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    It's nice to see the local media finally bring it to light.
    Indy........I loved the whole article, esp about the Yankees or Red Sox crying.

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelreign View Post
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    I'd be willing to bet alot of Dejan's assumptions are on the conservative side which would mean more or less that the Brewers are really shooting their entire load on this season to win it all, and when it doesn't happen, I am gonna Maybe this article will now shut some of the critics up about how Nutting "doesn't " spend money, because what I took from the article was that with Nuttings approach, there will be more more money to keep our own players, which is the main focus.
    It won't shut them up because they aren't really fans. How could you be a fan and not enjoy some of the success this year, the improvements, look at how this entire organization has transformed since McClatchy and Littlefield were run out of town, how we continue to be the biggest spenders in the draft etc... You can't be a fan if you don't have a smile on your face thinking about some of these things. The Lemmings sole purpose is to oppose anything Pittsburgh Pirates. It's no different than listening to fans from another team bash yours. It's the EXACT same concept.

    The Brewers are a team that could afford to shoot it's load. I don't recall off the top of my head where they sit comfortably without going into the red, I'm going to guess it's about $80 million, so if they shoot their load by $10 million, they could drop payroll into a still competitive realm and make it back because they have always had a strong attendance base. They've never averaged under 20K fans per game since Miller Park opened and there's been some terrible teams that the Brewers have fielded in that time frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Lup View Post
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    Very good read. DK seems to have developed a brain since he left the PG. Of course it's too late for Smizik.

    This article was dismissed out of hand by the local idiots of the Smizik blog. Of course there was some math involved so I'm sure people like Daquido, BFD etc didn't understand it.
    Two Syllable words are a bit much for them.
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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Bud actually recommended Frank Coonelly as CEO to Bob Nutting, so it was absolutely a gigantic influence on the decision if not THE influence on the decision to hire Frank.

    I'm with you and Ex, that it's pretty remarkable that Frank was Mr.Slot guy and is now pretty much Mr.Anti Slot guy. As far as the Pirates have been concerned since 2008, the "Slot" has stood as nothing more than a number to show how much we've gone beyond it Self imposed "slots" are fairly useless and becoming more useless as the Pirates continue to use the system for our need.

    There's rumors as well that the next CBA won't see a hard cap/hard slotting system which would mean, not much with the draft will change
    I would think you would have a hard time legally imposing a cap on spending without including the international players in the draft.

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    The Brewers are a team that could afford to shoot it's load. I don't recall off the top of my head where they sit comfortably without going into the red, I'm going to guess it's about $80 million, so if they shoot their load by $10 million, they could drop payroll into a still competitive realm and make it back because they have always had a strong attendance base. They've never averaged under 20K fans per game since Miller Park opened and there's been some terrible teams that the Brewers have fielded in that time frame
    What the hell else is there to do in Milwaukee? Miller beer is flavored water. Root for the Packers? Yea maybe but you still have 8 months left.

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    This makes me wonder if the Pirates took Cole, passing on Rendon and others, banking on Bell still being available in the second round.

    That would be gutsy move on two accounts:
    1. Assuming all the other teams were scared off by the letter (which BTW, I had NEVER heard about before this article,) and none would want to take the chance.
    2. Taking said chance on someone with an "unwaivering" commitement to the University on Texas....someone who "wouldn't sign for $10 million" accoring to Boras.

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    Default Re: Very good article by DK in the Trib!

    Quote Originally Posted by indybucfan View Post
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    I would think you would have a hard time legally imposing a cap on spending without including the international players in the draft.
    Weren't they supposed to be interested in combining the 2 drafts into 1? Would certainly up the quality of the draft, thats for sure and would likely hurt some HS leverage because of a deeper pool of players

    Quote Originally Posted by exNCite View Post
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    What the hell else is there to do in Milwaukee? Miller beer is flavored water. Root for the Packers? Yea maybe but you still have 8 months left.
    Ever see the chicks at Miller Park? Having a good time and getting laid isn't really an option over there either

    Quote Originally Posted by El Sid View Post
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    This makes me wonder if the Pirates took Cole, passing on Rendon and others, banking on Bell still being available in the second round.

    That would be gutsy move on two accounts:
    1. Assuming all the other teams were scared off by the letter (which BTW, I had NEVER heard about before this article,) and none would want to take the chance.
    2. Taking said chance on someone with an "unwaivering" commitement to the University on Texas....someone who "wouldn't sign for $10 million" accoring to Boras.
    I really believe that Rendon's injury worried them. they ran into an injury related pick with Scheppers a few years ago and I feel like they wanted to avoid the uncertainty.

    It was a plus to gain a plus bat and a potential arm in the 1st and 2nd. That's pretty ideal. I'm still not fully on the Cole bandwagon and personally if MLB had the option to trade in the draft, this is one I'd have traded down in. He's got potential but his potential hasn't translated into complete results in 2 years of college. Until I see the results stem from the potential, I can't buy into what cole is supposed to be since he appears far from it .... BUT again, pitching and a bat is a nice haul even if it was expensive. The Pirates will live or die by their pitching
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