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Thread: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

      
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    Default Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    This according to a tweet by Dejan this morning....It is as bad, if not worse, than last year now, isn't it?

    Makes me do some second guessing of Neal's decisions at the trade deadline. Just having an 8th inning guy in the bullpen probably saves them 5 wins, and possibly more, but more importantly, keeps them a little more competitive for the whole season. The conventional wisdom is that a pitcher would've cost too much young talent. I wonder (hindsight is so easy) if it wouldn't have been worth it, so as to not let this season get away, so that you preserve the good will of the fans, and keep players motivated.

    I'm not saying that a relief pitcher changes all that much. I just think it might have been the only thing that saves the franchise from the debacle that the season has become. As it stands, and the team keeps playing at the current level, they don't even hit 70 wins. They lose season ticket sales for next year. They settle right into their 19 year funk.

    So, if you keep up the 9-26 pace for the remainder of the year, have you really even made any progress in 2011? If so, what is it?

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    I think progress has been made. There were so many factors that contributed to their recent slide. I mostly blame the Phillies (not the 19 inning debaucle). The Phillies series seemed to just suck the life out of the Pirates. I also think that losing Pressley, Tabata, and D'arnaud took away that young enthusiasm. Getting Pedro back was also a bad thing for the pirates for 2 reasons. First of all, Pedro ****ing Sucks. Second, it forced the Pirates to demote Harrison.

    And most obviously, you can only go as far as your starting pitching takes you. And the "house of cards" that was our pitching staff, started to fall down.
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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    The progress is out the window. Pres(s)ley, Tabata, dar' NO and Josh are average to below average to even far below average major league players. Chase ****ing sucks worse than Pedro and has little upside.

    Adding one reliever (I guess Grilli didn't count) wouldn't have been enough. This team needs to develop pitchers that can last six or preferrably seven months.

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    The curse of Jerry Meals lives on! Funny how the Pirates have completely fallen apart since that night (9-25) while the Brewers have been playing out of their minds (27-5) since that same night. To go from first place to 18.5 games out in just over a month is quite remarkeable. Not sure I've ever seen that happen. The Pirates could end up losing 90 games and possibly finish 5th, depending on how the Cubbies finish, after having a magical first 100 games of the season. Just makes you want to turn the clock back a month or two, so we can relive that magic all over again, since we don't know if or when we'll see it again.

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    Quote Originally Posted by BGK View Post
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    I think progress has been made. There were so many factors that contributed to their recent slide. I mostly blame the Phillies (not the 19 inning debaucle). The Phillies series seemed to just suck the life out of the Pirates. I also think that losing Pressley, Tabata, and D'arnaud took away that young enthusiasm. Getting Pedro back was also a bad thing for the pirates for 2 reasons. First of all, Pedro ****ing Sucks. Second, it forced the Pirates to demote Harrison.

    And most obviously, you can only go as far as your starting pitching takes you. And the "house of cards" that was our pitching staff, started to fall down.
    Pretty much agree. Can't say that Pedro ****ing Sucks, just that he sucks. Whatever his problem is, he needs to figure it out and produce (otherwise repay most of the money given to him and let us use it on someone else). They had a chemistry going when Presley, Tabata, D'arnaud and yes even Harrison were playing that they lost when they all went down. They may not be the cornerstones of a ballclub, but there is no way you can't discount the way the team played when they were here.

    The Pedro situation is more subtle than most acknowledge, IMHO. He's been hyped as the future face of the Bucs and I believe most of the players buy into it. When he struggles, all of a sudden the other players feel they have to make up for his failures. "I'm batting before Pedro and I have to drive this run in because Pedro probably won't." Maybe not consciously but subconsciously. I believe that chemistry on a team is so important, and while they had it the play was pretty good.

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
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    The progress is out the window. Pres(s)ley, Tabata, dar' NO and Josh are average to below average to even far below average major league players. Chase ****ing sucks worse than Pedro and has little upside.

    Adding one reliever (I guess Grilli didn't count) wouldn't have been enough. This team needs to develop pitchers that can last six or preferrably seven months.
    d'Arnaud was hitting .213 before getting sent down and people still believed that he was providing some sort of positive affect on the team because it went through a nice winning streak that the entire pitching staff controlled, not the offense. When the Pirates were hot, the Starting and Relief Pitching was pitching like Top 10 staffs. The Offensive production wasn';t much more outside of having a couple of larger run producing games against teams like the Cubs and Astros etc.. who at the time were playing extremely poor against everyone else too.

    The story of the Pirates august has been, one that we have seen for years and years... Something that needs to be relied on ****s the bed when it's needed most. If we get good starting pitching, the Bullpen fails. When the bullpen is good, the startying Pitching had failed.

    This season was never about the offense. the offense went through so many different lineups and was never really that good with any of them. it's potentially best lineup could only stay healthy for a game or 2 and never developed anything resembling chemistry (McCutchen, Jones, Walker, Lee, Pedro, Ludwick, Doumit, Cedeno).

    The story has always revolved around the pitching. The Pirates went where the pitching took it. Right now what you've seen is the Starting Pitching got tired and got beaten up on and the bullpen had to come in to bail them out too often, mixed in with some deep Extra Innings games. the starting pitching recently hasn't been that bad, but Hurdle is pulling guys before they got to 80 pitches to not ruin their arms for next season since a lot of guys have pitched beyond career norms or are close to it. This means the Bullpen is getting worked mroe and the bullpen is both flat out beat and in some cases struggling like Tony Watson.

    I said it before the Trade Deadline multiple times that the Pitching couldn't last at it's rate the entire season. Not that they don't have the talent or that they had been performing at a fluke rate, just that the lack of experience and Innings would get to them and some fatigue would set in. I believe that this staff for the most part can repeat what they did most of this season next year and with some better offensive production be better and last longer with more experienced arms
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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    I hear ya Kipper, but last I looked, the Bucs still play the same no of games that everyone else plays. Why is the innings thing not true for most other teams too?

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    Quote Originally Posted by exNCite View Post
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    I hear ya Kipper, but last I looked, the Bucs still play the same no of games that everyone else plays. Why is the innings thing not true for most other teams too?
    Most teams didn't have this many inexperienced guys. Morton, Karstens, Mcdonald never pitched a full MLB season worth of games, or IP's. Kevin Correia only pitched 145 IPs last season and he exceeded that this season before going down to injury. James Mcdonald pitched just 71.2 IP's last year at the MLB level and about 130 IPS combined between the majors and minors. This year he is already at 145.0. Morton is at 144 IP's this year, [pitches just 79.2 at the MLB level last season and combined for around 140 when you throw in the Minors last season.

    A lot of these guys really pushed their limits of their arms and probably mental fatigue as far as the length of an MLB season which was a first for Morton, Mcdonald and Karstens who had previously gone back and forth between the minors and majors in a season and in Karstens case, minors, majors, starter and bullpen.

    Like I said, it was inevitable that the arms would show some wear in the starting rotation later in the season but it's the bullpen IMO that has taken the most abuse because, when the SP's struggled, they had to pitch more. Combined with the extra innings and now with Hurdle protecting the starters arms for nezxt season, having to pick up more innings per game... they are taxed, have looked taxed and you can see it with the way we've blown games.

    the Pirates BOP has pitched the 6th most innings of any Bullpen this season and of those 6 teams, have had more game appearances by a nice margin. the month of August, the Bullpen has pitched the 2nd most Innings in all of baseball trailing the Rockies by 3.1 Innings. most importantly, coinciding with that, the Bullpen had a horrific 6.02 ERA in August, worst in the majors
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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    The innings pitched argument is valid but it is an unacceptable excuse. A baseball season is at least 1458 innings long. Professional pitchers must do their part! Better conditioning now!

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
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    The innings pitched argument is valid but it is an unacceptable excuse. A baseball season is at least 1458 innings long. Professional pitchers must do their part! Better conditioning now!
    It's more an unacceptable excuse years ago when pitchers weren't pampered as much as they are now but the reality is that pitchers are pampered from the time they set foot in an organization. Their Innings pitched is carefully analyzed, the types of pitches they can throw in the lower minors is carefully analyzed and restricted etc.. One might not like "how it is" but it is "how it is" and something we have to accept, deal with and factor in.

    Pitching fatigue was a concern for a lot of people that were and are aware of how pitchers Innings Pitched are handled. Better conditioning is meaningless, since todays pitchers are conditioned to pitch a specific amount. It doesn't mean that every pitcher can only do so much but the reality is that a majority are conditioned for a specific amount. Again, whether we like or hate the system doesn't mean anything since it is the system and we have to either accept it or watch another sport.

    I felt that the pitching staff, Starting Pitching staff that is, did a much better job long term than I expected. I don't really see any flukes outside of Karsten's on the staff and I see plenty of improvements individually that will make each better. Morton growing more comfortable with his new delivery and improving against Lefties is going to make him a ton better. Mcdonald needs to get his BB/89 down into the 4's which will keep him in games longer etc...
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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Most teams didn't have this many inexperienced guys. Morton, Karstens, Mcdonald never pitched a full MLB season worth of games, or IP's. Kevin Correia only pitched 145 IPs last season and he exceeded that this season before going down to injury. James Mcdonald pitched just 71.2 IP's last year at the MLB level and about 130 IPS combined between the majors and minors. This year he is already at 145.0. Morton is at 144 IP's this year, [pitches just 79.2 at the MLB level last season and combined for around 140 when you throw in the Minors last season.

    A lot of these guys really pushed their limits of their arms and probably mental fatigue as far as the length of an MLB season which was a first for Morton, Mcdonald and Karstens who had previously gone back and forth between the minors and majors in a season and in Karstens case, minors, majors, starter and bullpen.

    Like I said, it was inevitable that the arms would show some wear in the starting rotation later in the season but it's the bullpen IMO that has taken the most abuse because, when the SP's struggled, they had to pitch more. Combined with the extra innings and now with Hurdle protecting the starters arms for nezxt season, having to pick up more innings per game... they are taxed, have looked taxed and you can see it with the way we've blown games.

    the Pirates BOP has pitched the 6th most innings of any Bullpen this season and of those 6 teams, have had more game appearances by a nice margin. the month of August, the Bullpen has pitched the 2nd most Innings in all of baseball trailing the Rockies by 3.1 Innings. most importantly, coinciding with that, the Bullpen had a horrific 6.02 ERA in August, worst in the majors
    There's no denying that the pitching, both bullpen and starters, declined precipitously during this streak, and that guys like Correia and Kartsens were pitching with quite a bit of luck on their side in any case. But surely someone in the FO was thinking about the innings? And had a plan? For both the rotation and the bullpen? It just ticks me off that they "allowed" this to happen in a year that was so hopeful. Are you saying that no one is to blame for anything here? That this is the way it had to be? It's the baseball Gods? You just go from 7 games above .500 to looking like John Russell's 2010 team?

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    As long as the season is 162 games long and games are nine innings and the roster size is 25 we cannot accept our pitchers running out of gas in mid-July!

    A rethinking of the plan is in order.

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
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    As long as the season is 162 games long and games are nine innings and the roster size is 25 we cannot accept our pitchers running out of gas in mid-July!

    A rethinking of the plan is in order.
    But look at the rotation, with the exception of Ohlendorf, not one of those guys is built like a horse. They all have slight builds. I remember Seaver and those horse types with the thick lower body that they got a lot of their power from, and I don't see it with these guys. Maybe the guys like Taillion, Allie, and Heredia will be different, but we'll see.

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    We need to upgrade the offense period. We won some many games 2 to 1 that it was bound to happen that our pitching would wear down. Jmac.Morton/karestens have locked up a spot in the rotation next year. If we could get anything of value for Koriea then I hope they move him.

    if we are going yo go with a speed OF then we must get a 25 HR 1st and 20 out of 3rd. I believe that Alverez will figure it out and take over one of those spots the questions becomes do they put 12 mill and make a play for Aram and **** Alverez off. 1st bman in FA suck.

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    Default Re: Pirates 9-26 since the last day they were in first place

    I thought all the team needed was the magical leadership powers of Clint Hurdle. Funny how you don't hear about that anymore...

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