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Thread: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

      
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    PittFaninVa's Avatar
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    Default The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    The Nationals blow and are rebuilding but they threw their fans a bone. They felt the need to pony up 15 mil for 2 years for pitcher that will make them better in the short term while they are rebuilding.

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/1...er-marquis/rss

    Good move or bad....what do you think?

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    night9hawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
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    The Nationals blow and are rebuilding but they threw their fans a bone. They felt the need to pony up 15 mil for 2 years for pitcher that will make them better in the short term while they are rebuilding.

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/1...er-marquis/rss

    Good move or bad....what do you think?
    Good move for the Pirates; it makes NH look more intelligent in the way he's handling the rebuilding of the Pirates in that he's not wasting money on people that won't make a difference down the road when the team is competitive. Why not save the money and use it for something else like signing key draft choices a bit over slot or building a sports complex in Latin America or hiring a few more good scouts? Some people like bones but I prefer the meat!

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    Kipper's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Let's see....

    31 year old pitcher (32 in August) with a career 1.42 WHIP and 4.48 ERA coming off a season with a 1.38 WHIP and 4.04 era. not to mention that he has a K/9 rate lower than Zach Duke and going to a team with bad defense as it is...

    Not gonna make the Nationals any better. They just busted their wad. $7.5 million per year for the right handed older version of Zach Duke. Wouldn't make us any better, that's for sure. Glad to see Huntington avoided these boneheaded moves. I hope the Nationals keep using the Dave Littlefield rebuilding plan

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by night9hawk View Post
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    Good move for the Pirates; it makes NH look more intelligent in the way he's handling the rebuilding of the Pirates in that he's not wasting money on people that won't make a difference down the road when the team is competitive. Why not save the money and use it for something else like signing key draft choices a bit over slot or building a sports complex in Latin America or hiring a few more good scouts? Some people like bones but I prefer the meat!

    If I'm not mistaken the Nats signed two 1st round picks last year one being the highest paid draftee ever and they still thought it was a good idea to improve their ML team in the short term while their organization develops.

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
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    If I'm not mistaken the Nats signed two 1st round picks last year one being the highest paid draftee ever and they still thought it was a good idea to improve their ML team in the short term while their organization develops.
    Where are they improving their MLB roster? They just overpaid for the right handed older version of Zack duke that's needs a competent defense behind him because he can't strike anyone out. that's not what they need.

    you know what the Nationals just did? the same exact thing that all of the ignorant Pirates want to see us do... up payroll for the sakes of upping payroll. The Nats didn't get any better with overpaying Jason Marquis. I'd be ****ed off as all hell if we had signed Marquis to that deal or signed Marquis at all.

    Nice try throwing the PBC under the bus

    but kudos to the Nats for paying for Strasburg... they used the money they saved on refusing to sign their first round pick the season before

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Let's see....

    31 year old pitcher (32 in August) with a career 1.42 WHIP and 4.48 ERA coming off a season with a 1.38 WHIP and 4.04 era. not to mention that he has a K/9 rate lower than Zach Duke and going to a team with bad defense as it is...

    Not gonna make the Nationals any better. They just busted their wad. $7.5 million per year for the right handed older version of Zach Duke. Wouldn't make us any better, that's for sure. Glad to see Huntington avoided these boneheaded moves. I hope the Nationals keep using the Dave Littlefield rebuilding plan
    LOL. Have u seen the Nats starting pitching stats from last year?This is an incredible addition....

    Seriously, I think the Pirates should go ahead and sign the right guy, if it makes sense as a long-term deal. Is there some rule that says "make sure the ML team sucks and loses 100 games while you rebuild." All this talk of "saving money" for other things really annoys me. At some point you have to build a ML roster. Are we waiting until 2015?

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Where are they improving their MLB roster? They just overpaid for the right handed older version of Zack duke that's needs a competent defense behind him because he can't strike anyone out. that's not what they need.

    you know what the Nationals just did? the same exact thing that all of the ignorant Pirates want to see us do... up payroll for the sakes of upping payroll. The Nats didn't get any better with overpaying Jason Marquis. I'd be ****ed off as all hell if we had signed Marquis to that deal or signed Marquis at all.

    Nice try throwing the PBC under the bus

    but kudos to the Nats for paying for Strasburg... they used the money they saved on refusing to sign their first round pick the season before
    I'm not saying this is a good or bad move just trying to stir conversation. When heathly Marquis isn't horrible.... his stats aren't overwhelming but he has won 15, 13, 14, 12, 11 15 games in the last 6 years. Without question he has made them a better team but I agree that was a steep price to pay. I just find it interesting that a team would actually pay someone more than mimum wage to try and win a few more games while they are rebuilding.

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
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    I'm not saying this is a good or bad move just trying to stir conversation. When heathly Marquis isn't horrible.... his stats aren't overwhelming but he has won 15, 13, 14, 12, 11 15 games in the last 6 years. He without question has made them a better team but I agree that was a steep price to pay. I just find it interesting that a team would actually pay someone more than mimum wage to try and win a few more games while they are rebuilding.
    Wins and Loses are a meaningless stat since for a pitcher it can in a lot of instances reflect more on the team surrounding him. If he had played with the Yankees offense he could've been a 20 game winner

    Marquis had a 4.04 ERA and Whip near 1.40 last year for a team with better defense than the Nationals. So, increase his stat line going to the Nats... and what you end up with is an overpaid pitcher who is clearly not better than much of what the Nats already have as SP.

    So basically you think the Nationals should be commended for bringing in a pitcher that isn't that good to begin who with a stat line of 4.04 and a 1.38 WHIP for a far better defensive and offensive team like the Rockies (which are better numbers than his career averages) at $7.5 million because they were simply dumb enough to overpay for a guy that won't likely bring more than a couple extra wins to that team at best?

    Dave Littlefield is somewhere thinking "wish i would've thought about this"...

    Basically you think the Pirates should've done the same thing, throw $7.5 million per year at Jason Marquis Pardon me while i find a bag to barf in

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Wins and Loses are a meaningless stat since for a pitcher it can in a lot of instances reflect more on the team surrounding him. If he had played with the Yankees offense he could've been a 20 game winner

    Marquis had a 4.04 ERA and Whip near 1.40 last year for a team with better defense than the Nationals. So, increase his stat line going to the Nats... and what you end up with is an overpaid pitcher who is clearly not better than much of what the Nats already have as SP.

    So basically you think the Nationals should be commended for bringing in a pitcher that isn't that good to begin who with a stat line of 4.04 and a 1.38 WHIP for a far better defensive and offensive team like the Rockies (which are better numbers than his career averages) at $7.5 million because they were simply dumb enough to overpay for a guy that won't likely bring more than a couple extra wins to that team at best?

    Dave Littlefield is somewhere thinking "wish i would've thought about this"...

    Basically you think the Pirates should've done the same thing, throw $7.5 million per year at Jason Marquis Pardon me while i find a bag to barf in
    Please read the my post again....you then might have to rethink your reply.

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    waste of payroll for the natinals, would have been better off grabbing a no name off waiver wire and hope he works out.

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Wins and Loses are a meaningless stat since for a pitcher it can in a lot of instances reflect more on the team surrounding him. If he had played with the Yankees offense he could've been a 20 game winner

    Marquis had a 4.04 ERA and Whip near 1.40 last year for a team with better defense than the Nationals. So, increase his stat line going to the Nats... and what you end up with is an overpaid pitcher who is clearly not better than much of what the Nats already have as SP.

    So basically you think the Nationals should be commended for bringing in a pitcher that isn't that good to begin who with a stat line of 4.04 and a 1.38 WHIP for a far better defensive and offensive team like the Rockies (which are better numbers than his career averages) at $7.5 million because they were simply dumb enough to overpay for a guy that won't likely bring more than a couple extra wins to that team at best?

    Dave Littlefield is somewhere thinking "wish i would've thought about this"...

    Basically you think the Pirates should've done the same thing, throw $7.5 million per year at Jason Marquis Pardon me while i find a bag to barf in
    You could argue that he's a lot cheaper than Matt Morris was on a per win basis.

    Much better to sign guys like Goro, the gentleman to the left of this message. He's 20 years old and throws a 100 mph fastball and a changeup. Doesn't always win but he's entertaining. And cheap...
    Last edited by night9hawk; Dec-22-2009 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
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    Please read the my post again....you then might have to rethink your reply.
    I read your post fine the first time.

    1. Your entire reasoning behind this thread and post is to suggest that the Pirates should be going out and throwing money away on bad players because they have the money. you wouldn't have brought this subject up if that wasn't your reasoning.

    This says it all

    I just find it interesting that a team would actually pay someone more than mimum wage to try and win a few more games while they are rebuilding.
    Overpaying for lousy talent isn't good management, it's bad management. I also disagreed in my previous post and disagree in this post that Jason Marquis makes them a better team. Marquis stats should decline over last year because he's a contact pitcher playing now for a bad defensive team.

    I also disagree with you that Marquis isn't horrible when he's not healthy. He hasn't had an ERA under 4 since 2003. His K/9 has always been awful and he hasn't had a WHIP of 1.33 or better since 2004. He sucks.

    This is on the same level of Dave Littlefield going out and signing Joe Randa and overpaying him. On paper Randa looks like an upgrade over the previous 3rd base starter we had but still sucked and wasn't and didn't improve the team one bit. We threw money away on garbage to appease a fan base that was so ****ing worried about where payroll sat. It ended up blocking a better and cheaper player in Freddy Sanchez but you don't want to hear that because a "cheaper" option can't be a better option since the word "cheap" is like cussing in church

    You think the signing of Marquis is a good signing because you think he upgrades the Nationals team and is worth the contract he got. I donn't think he's worth that money or an upgrade. I think young guys like Estrada and Martin improving next season are going to be better for that team than a bum like Marquis. So IMO it's not "without question". to me it's without question that Marquis won't make a difference and was grossly overpaid for it.

    I'm not surprised that a team would overpay past minimum wage for a crappy player. We saw it happen yearly with Dave Littlefield as a GM. As I said before, I'm glad it's not happening now.

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Bad idea. So, what the team may win like 5 or 6 more games a year?
    Big deal. Spend the money elsewhere. The average yinzer doesn't really care
    about the product much anyway. As long as the beer is flowing and the freaking pierogies are racing............

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Where are they improving their MLB roster?
    I'd argue that as long as Marquis is better than the guy he replaces in the rotation that the Nats are at least technically getting better. When you're looking at guys like Garrett Mock and Scott Olsen as possibly being odd man out, that's a real possibility.

    That said, it's a rediculous price to pay to a mediocre pitcher for a couple extra wins that have absolutely no benefit in the long run. It reeks of Littlefield.

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    Default Re: The difference between 2 teams that are rebuilding

    I will go with Kipper on it's the same argument over and over... about a 'magic' dollar figure that people have to show that the team was improving.

    I think the question should be asked if the person themselves improves the team, regardless of the dollars spent.

    For example Capps. Forget the whole dollar thing. Are the Pirates a better team without him? Chances are - probably yes. If we thought he sucked last year, then we can't expect him to garnish much return.

    As for the FA thing... each winter sugar plums dance in our heads while we think we can spend $$$, and make a big splash. Once you take the top 3 out.. is there anyone who truly is worth spending money on? As I stated first, we judge the signings I think more by the $$ spent rather than the player. "Oh, only 1.5m... he must suck. Why can we spend $5-6m on someone".

    I forget if it was here, or, PG Blog... this FO is much like a coach of a college team taking over. You can't just in one swoop replace all the starters and hope you magically win. It's gonna take time to build up. Look at our Freshman and Sophomore 'draft classes' and 'walk-on'.... they have already surpassed projections of all of DL's YEARS of bad management.

    Sorry, I rambled a bit here off the subject. But, I read the PG blog first, and all that is ever talked about is $$$ spent and the FO. Nice for a conversation here and there, but not much more we can do about who we have right now.

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