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Thread: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

      
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    Default DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09279/1003288-63.stm

    It was so awful that I didn't even feel like copying and pasting the entire article. I will say this, Dejan's writing this year as the beat writer for the Pirates took one big gigantic ****. Not small ****, big steamy big ****. He went from giving good open minded suggestions and thoughts, delivering insider news to pandering to the new league of *******s that use his blog a commenting circle to hate on the Pirates. All year long, Dejan has increasingly become a ton more opinionated, often repeating some of the awful crap spewed in his comments section.

    It's to the point where the only time I go over to DK's blog is when rumors are swirling about a trade, draft etc... that's about all that he's good for. Besides that stuff, Dejan has turned into bob Smizik.
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    sjdrewk
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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09279/1003288-63.stm

    It was so awful that I didn't even feel like copying and pasting the entire article. I will say this, Dejan's writing this year as the beat writer for the Pirates took one big gigantic ****. Not small ****, big steamy big ****. He went from giving good open minded suggestions and thoughts, delivering insider news to pandering to the new league of *******s that use his blog a commenting circle to hate on the Pirates. All year long, Dejan has increasingly become a ton more opinionated, often repeating some of the awful crap spewed in his comments section.

    It's to the point where the only time I go over to DK's blog is when rumors are swirling about a trade, draft etc... that's about all that he's good for. Besides that stuff, Dejan has turned into bob Smizik.
    I love #1 : SPend: It says they need to spend no matter what the cost? Yeah how'd that work out for the SF GIants? Barry Zito is a cautionary tale. Wasn't Zito considered quality at the time? Spend but don't spend no matter what the cost.

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    That's about where I rolled my eyes. People love to tell others when it's not their money to throw it away on anything... when it's your money, you spend wisely and spend to get the most value out of something and you only spend on things that are going to get you that value in return.

    Would have to find the free agency list but I've seen it and it is ****ing ugly. Who do you spend on? in msot cases most of those players on the free agency list are over 30, so if you spend, you will most likely overpay for a guy that wants paid based on what he had done not what he is going to do. You can't do that, spend liek that, unless you're a large market team with disposable money and can take the hit.

    The Pirates don't need to spend right now. that was what Dave Littlefield did. Over paid and wasted money on free agency bums that were past their primes. Sure, a collective of fans clapped when Jeromy Burnitz got a $6 million contract. It was a name they recognized and Bob Nutting was spending money. However that was like paying $20,000 for a 1987 Yugo. The Pirates are in a rebuilding phase right now. The big money should goto those good players they are drafting, getting in trades and developing. Their future. Like the Steelers do, like the Penguins. You start trying to buy in free agency as a small market and you are destined for failure. Hell even large market teams and owners have problems with that (see : Snyder, Dan and Cubs, Chicago).

    Allow the youth to develop, get experience work on their game. Don't bring in some has been like Joe Randa that does nothing but waste money and block better younger players like a Freddy Sanchez.
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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    That's about where I rolled my eyes. People love to tell others when it's not their money to throw it away on anything... when it's your money, you spend wisely and spend to get the most value out of something and you only spend on things that are going to get you that value in return.

    Exactly. I guess it's because we as fans spend so much and invest so much in time and emotion into our beloved sports teams that we think we have a say in how our favorite teams ors should spend their money.

    Would have to find the free agency list but I've seen it and it is ****ing ugly. Who do you spend on? in msot cases most of those players on the free agency list are over 30, so if you spend, you will most likely overpay for a guy that wants paid based on what he had done not what he is going to do. You can't do that, spend liek that, unless you're a large market team with disposable money and can take the hit.

    I think that this isn't the time to start splurging. This seasons FA market from what I hear and I haven't checked, is a very shallow market. The Bucs have to be smart about things. Do not panic like the Giants do every year because the fans *****.


    The Pirates don't need to spend right now. that was what Dave Littlefield did. Over paid and wasted money on free agency bums that were past their primes. Sure, a collective of fans clapped when Jeromy Burnitz got a $6 million contract. It was a name they recognized and Bob Nutting was spending money. However that was like paying $20,000 for a 1987 Yugo. The Pirates are in a rebuilding phase right now. The big money should goto those good players they are drafting, getting in trades and developing. Their future. Like the Steelers do, like the Penguins. You start trying to buy in free agency as a small market and you are destined for failure. Hell even large market teams and owners have problems with that (see : Snyder, Dan and Cubs, Chicago).
    I don't see why the Bucs can't follow their other Pittsburgh sports franchise counterparts. They have both left very good models on how to run an org. ****ing awesome observations, points and examples here, Kip!


    Allow the youth to develop, get experience work on their game. Don't bring in some has been like Joe Randa that does nothing but waste money and block better younger players like a Freddy Sanchez.
    And they compounded the mistake imo by getting rid of Sanchez.

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    I've been using the Steelers and Penguins examples of team building for a few months now. Granted, people look at those teams and see the success but with the success comes the way it was built. The Steelers and Pens never splurge in Free Agency. Sure, they'll pick up a player or 2. the Pens do annually but they spend very little and give out short term contracts. It's being smart. Plugging holes not building through Free Agency.

    The Steelers and Pens build via the draft. They build by developing younger players. That's what the Pirates have to do and is currently what they are doing. nobody knwos if their talent evaluating abilities are as good. Every team has misses with talent evaluating. The Steelers have had their share of duds... heck, Limas Sweed was rumored to be on the trading block The Pens signed Miroslav Satan etc... so you have the bad and the good. Don't know what the Pirates will have, but it's not all at the MLB level with a little experience. Even with the Steelers, look at the players on the roster, outside of Ben, everyone else need some seasoning. So you have to allow players to develope......

    but if your Dejan, you block the development and over pay for some 30+ year old with past injury problems. Brilliant. It's the same exact plan that has crippled this franchise since Bonds left. Nobody has a ****ing clue how to build a winner and for some reason not enough people look next door or across town to see how they're built successfully.
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    sjdrewk
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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    To what extent do you personally think the ball park effected the FO's thinking regarding nurturing the farm system versus the pinning hopes of building via free agency in the ballpark. How much do you think the FO overestimated fan turnout and how much hope do you think the FO had in gaining more revenue in order to go the FA route? Is this why the Bucs are stuck where they are? Are they to blame or are the fans to blame for not coming out to the park more often even though there has been 17 years of futility. To me it's just a unfortunate double-edged sword and has been for a long, long, time.

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09279/1003288-63.stm

    It was so awful that I didn't even feel like copying and pasting the entire article. I will say this, Dejan's writing this year as the beat writer for the Pirates took one big gigantic ****. Not small ****, big steamy big ****. He went from giving good open minded suggestions and thoughts, delivering insider news to pandering to the new league of *******s that use his blog a commenting circle to hate on the Pirates. All year long, Dejan has increasingly become a ton more opinionated, often repeating some of the awful crap spewed in his comments section.

    It's to the point where the only time I go over to DK's blog is when rumors are swirling about a trade, draft etc... that's about all that he's good for. Besides that stuff, Dejan has turned into bob Smizik.
    I agree about Dejan... he used to be one of the best writers in Pittsburgh.

    I am not sure if it is covering a losing team, or (and, I agree) that stupid blog.

    He used to write objectively... now he just tried to get posts on his blog with is comments. He is a beat writer - not a columnist.

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by sjdrewk View Post
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    To what extent do you personally think the ball park effected the FO's thinking regarding nurturing the farm system versus the pinning hopes of building via free agency in the ballpark. How much do you think the FO overestimated fan turnout and how much hope do you think the FO had in gaining more revenue in order to go the FA route? Is this why the Bucs are stuck where they are? Are they to blame or are the fans to blame for not coming out to the park more often even though there has been 17 years of futility. To me it's just a unfortunate double-edged sword and has been for a long, long, time.
    Can't blame the fans. losing season after losing season, it's inevitable that people aren't going to come out.

    At the beginning from 93-97 you knew it would be rough. You had the baseball strike, player salaries escalated ridiculously thanks to George Steinbrenner and others, the Pirates ownership was going through tough finanical times wanted to sell....

    Kevin Mcclatchy came in, bought the team, GUTTED it along with payroll. Payroll in 1997 was $9 million. He got PNC Park built and yeah, it is one of the greatest ballparks in baseball, but it's not going to bring any more revenue without people going there and you need to start winning, and build interest in the team. All of these dumb *** owners and league commissioners think new venues are the be all. They're more like a new toy to keep up with the others, but they aren't bringing more people in to make a difference after inaugural seasons.

    The FO for the Pirates' biggest problem has always been awful drafting, awful talent evaluation, awful development, awful scouting. After 17 losing seasons, we have very little to show for it through the draft and developmental process. That's the biggest red flag right there. You can't succeed with those types of results. While ignoring this problem and not investing in and paying attention to Latin America and Asia, both Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield spent most of their time either handing out bad contracts that hurt the team or they kept hitting up free agency and were bringing in has beens that they overpaid in hopes of bringing a few more people to the old ball park. I question if they ever really wanted to win,

    Ownership is a tough one. I went back and forth with ICP on this before I realized that he didn't know **** and stopped responding... Pirates ownership control via votes and what not was all under Kevin McClatchy until 2007. Ogden Nutting was a shareholder and was buying people out throughout Mcclatchy's tenure and then his son bob nutting came in and had some control in 2003 but not big decision making control. that was Kevin McClatchy. Bob Nutting didn't actually assume fuil control until 2007, the same year we saw Littlefield get fired, a facility built in the Dominican, Mcclatchy forced out, a new CEO and GM brought in and new and different direction.

    I'm giving Bob Nutting a fair chance to prove himself either way. It's been his organization solely since 2007, but I'm probably more excited about where this organization is heading. Since Ntting gutted the FO, I've actually seen for the first time since the 80's an actual plan to try and build the organization up and win more than lose. Both of Neal Huntington's drafts have been pretty good. There's always players you think a team should take but knowing his main scouts love for raw players they've stayed pretty true and have delivered some good drafts. The trades have been iffy. Actually the returns have been, every player they traded, they definitely should have traded and traded them when they did. I think the Pirates are going to get closer to .500 next year than any other year since 1992 and I'm not an overly optimistic type
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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by moneytalks View Post
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    I agree about Dejan... he used to be one of the best writers in Pittsburgh.

    I am not sure if it is covering a losing team, or (and, I agree) that stupid blog.

    He used to write objectively... now he just tried to get posts on his blog with is comments. He is a beat writer - not a columnist.
    Well that's the problem. Dejan's job is to be a beat writer not to write opinionated pieces. He's become more of a garbage columnist than actually doing his job. If I want to read ****ty columns, I see what Smizik has to say
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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    I don't really think any of the 10 he lists are of much value. Half of them don't really mean anything, and the others just aren't correct. You guys already jumped on the "just spend" idea (Littlefield used to do that, it didn't go so well), but the others aren't great either.
    The one I focus on in particular is "Promote Alvarez, Lincoln". I know some people won't agree, but I think unless they completely blow everyone away in Spring Training they probably should be in the minors to start the year. I don't even really think the financial side has to be considered to draw this conclusion (although it should, regardless of what Dejan says, every team does it these days). With Alvarez, sure he had a great first year, but there's a guy named Alex Gordon who had an even more impressive first year as a pro. He even started the season in AA rather than in A+ like Alvarez. He hit .325/.427/.588 with 29 HR 101 RBI and 22 SB during the minor league season. They pushed him to the majors out of spring training the next year and he struggled. They left him in the majors the next year and he struggled, then this year he struggled and got injured. The reason most commonly cited for his struggles at the major league level is that he didn't get enough development time and was still trying to learn things at the major league level. He never actually improved or maximized his own skill set, and instead just took advantage of inexperienced players who weren't at his level. Once he got to the majors he was the one having his flaws exploited.

    With Lincoln, I legitimately believe he needs to work on his changeup, as the team has cited in the past. A good way to tell how effective a guy's changeup was during the year in the minors is to look at how well hitters from the opposite side of the plate hit him. For the season lefties hit him at a .280 clip, including .333 after his bump to AAA. Seems like a pretty good indicator that the pitch isn't where it needs to be.

    The last thing I want the team to do is call these guys up while they're still at a point where they're going to have to go back down (see Ramirez, Aramis for a good example). These are guys who need to be ready completely to be here and stay here once they're up. I don't mind it when it's a marginal prospect who you're calling up to fill a space, but you can't make these mistakes with your prized prospects. The Mets did it with Lastings Milledge and I think he's still feeling the effects of it as well.

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Can't blame the fans. losing season after losing season, it's inevitable that people aren't going to come out.

    At the beginning from 93-97 you knew it would be rough. You had the baseball strike, player salaries escalated ridiculously thanks to George Steinbrenner and others, the Pirates ownership was going through tough finanical times wanted to sell....

    Kevin Mcclatchy came in, bought the team, GUTTED it along with payroll. Payroll in 1997 was $9 million. He got PNC Park built and yeah, it is one of the greatest ballparks in baseball, but it's not going to bring any more revenue without people going there and you need to start winning, and build interest in the team. All of these dumb *** owners and league commissioners think new venues are the be all. They're more like a new toy to keep up with the others, but they aren't bringing more people in to make a difference after inaugural seasons.

    The FO for the Pirates' biggest problem has always been awful drafting, awful talent evaluation, awful development, awful scouting. After 17 losing seasons, we have very little to show for it through the draft and developmental process. That's the biggest red flag right there. You can't succeed with those types of results. While ignoring this problem and not investing in and paying attention to Latin America and Asia, both Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield spent most of their time either handing out bad contracts that hurt the team or they kept hitting up free agency and were bringing in has beens that they overpaid in hopes of bringing a few more people to the old ball park. I question if they ever really wanted to win,

    Ownership is a tough one. I went back and forth with ICP on this before I realized that he didn't know **** and stopped responding... Pirates ownership control via votes and what not was all under Kevin McClatchy until 2007. Ogden Nutting was a shareholder and was buying people out throughout Mcclatchy's tenure and then his son bob nutting came in and had some control in 2003 but not big decision making control. that was Kevin McClatchy. Bob Nutting didn't actually assume fuil control until 2007, the same year we saw Littlefield get fired, a facility built in the Dominican, Mcclatchy forced out, a new CEO and GM brought in and new and different direction.

    I'm giving Bob Nutting a fair chance to prove himself either way. It's been his organization solely since 2007, but I'm probably more excited about where this organization is heading. Since Ntting gutted the FO, I've actually seen for the first time since the 80's an actual plan to try and build the organization up and win more than lose. Both of Neal Huntington's drafts have been pretty good. There's always players you think a team should take but knowing his main scouts love for raw players they've stayed pretty true and have delivered some good drafts. The trades have been iffy. Actually the returns have been, every player they traded, they definitely should have traded and traded them when they did. I think the Pirates are going to get closer to .500 next year than any other year since 1992 and I'm not an overly optimistic type
    Great post, Kip. Sounds like Nutting is clearing the slate and he wants to start from scratch from top to bottom with is own players and staff. Does he need to stay patient and build from the farm? WIll the fans allow him to after 17 years of nothing? Or will the fans get impatient after a couple of years of rebuilding? We've seen it before.
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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Ditto on DK's writing. Thought I was the only one noticing it.

    Ole Neil finally has us on the right track...

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by jnn123 View Post
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    I don't really think any of the 10 he lists are of much value. Half of them don't really mean anything, and the others just aren't correct. You guys already jumped on the "just spend" idea (Littlefield used to do that, it didn't go so well), but the others aren't great either.
    The one I focus on in particular is "Promote Alvarez, Lincoln". I know some people won't agree, but I think unless they completely blow everyone away in Spring Training they probably should be in the minors to start the year. I don't even really think the financial side has to be considered to draw this conclusion (although it should, regardless of what Dejan says, every team does it these days). With Alvarez, sure he had a great first year, but there's a guy named Alex Gordon who had an even more impressive first year as a pro. He even started the season in AA rather than in A+ like Alvarez. He hit .325/.427/.588 with 29 HR 101 RBI and 22 SB during the minor league season. They pushed him to the majors out of spring training the next year and he struggled. They left him in the majors the next year and he struggled, then this year he struggled and got injured. The reason most commonly cited for his struggles at the major league level is that he didn't get enough development time and was still trying to learn things at the major league level. He never actually improved or maximized his own skill set, and instead just took advantage of inexperienced players who weren't at his level. Once he got to the majors he was the one having his flaws exploited.

    With Lincoln, I legitimately believe he needs to work on his changeup, as the team has cited in the past. A good way to tell how effective a guy's changeup was during the year in the minors is to look at how well hitters from the opposite side of the plate hit him. For the season lefties hit him at a .280 clip, including .333 after his bump to AAA. Seems like a pretty good indicator that the pitch isn't where it needs to be.

    The last thing I want the team to do is call these guys up while they're still at a point where they're going to have to go back down (see Ramirez, Aramis for a good example). These are guys who need to be ready completely to be here and stay here once they're up. I don't mind it when it's a marginal prospect who you're calling up to fill a space, but you can't make these mistakes with your prized prospects. The Mets did it with Lastings Milledge and I think he's still feeling the effects of it as well.
    Your example of gordon is good but we have an actually example that's pretty good in Lastings Milledge. A guy that was rushed before being properly developed to the MLB level by the Mets and the Nats did the same thing. The Pirates on the other hand threw him into the low minors and worked on him and then put him on the MLB roster and are still working with the development of his game... and... Milledge has been completely appreciative of it and has said that he was rushed and wasn't developed, just thrown to the wolves.

    So, yeah, I agree completely. Let Alvarez play some AAA ball and see how he does. He's got 1 season of minor league ball and is still developing patience and an eye at the plate, his defense. Let him get better at those things in the minors than work at them all at the MLB level while also dealing with extreme pressure. Same with Lincol. Last year was his first full season throwing all of his pitches since tommy johns surgery and he wore down as the season went on last year. His arm isn't at full strength yet and TJ is something you want to be cautious with.

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by sjdrewk View Post
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    Great post, Kip. Sounds like Nutting is clearing the slate and he wants to start from scratch from top to bottom with is own players and staff. Does he need to stay patient and build from the farm? WIll the fans allow him to after 17 years of nothing? Or will the fans get impatient after a couple of years of rebuilding? We've seen it before.
    Fans are already impatient. so no, they aren't willing to allow him to rebuild. It's been constant criticism after criticism cause everyone thinks there's an easy quick fix. the problem with that is the previous FO's left the entire system in shambles. I compare it to inheriting a house that's been condemned. You aren't going to rebuild that in a week with limited income. TheYankees could, the Pirates... it's going to take a little time to do it right. Fans patience has just worn thin through out the years, theyve heard the promises, the talks of plans and are only interested in seeing results at the MLB level.

    That's fine, but for some of us, we know that there's more to it. Personally I have for the first time followed the minors this year and kept a close eye on the prospects and what not. I knew the MLB team wouldn't be good so I watched and followed the future, the development and things like that

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    Default Re: DK's Top 10 Ways To Reboot Pirates in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09279/1003288-63.stm

    It was so awful that I didn't even feel like copying and pasting the entire article. I will say this, Dejan's writing this year as the beat writer for the Pirates took one big gigantic ****. Not small ****, big steamy big ****. He went from giving good open minded suggestions and thoughts, delivering insider news to pandering to the new league of *******s that use his blog a commenting circle to hate on the Pirates. All year long, Dejan has increasingly become a ton more opinionated, often repeating some of the awful crap spewed in his comments section.

    It's to the point where the only time I go over to DK's blog is when rumors are swirling about a trade, draft etc... that's about all that he's good for. Besides that stuff, Dejan has turned into bob Smizik.
    That's a little harsh brother. I mean the man is entitled to his opinion. I do wish he had more/better stories etc...but he's entitled to his opinion...and this year really was a ****ter.

    I agree with some of the points about him going backwards this year...but I dont know if he's that bad LOL...Smizik is terrible.
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