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Thread: 2008 vs 2010

      
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    Default 2008 vs 2010

    Many people have posted in the past how the 2008 team was a decent team. It was a pretty good offensive team, but poor defensively and had no pitching. That team in all likelihood would have reached 72-75 wins had there been no trades. I feel this team is as good as that one and potentially significantly better.

    Lineups
    C Doumit vs Doumit
    1b LaRoche vs Clement
    2b Freddy vs Iwamura
    3b Bautista vs LaRoche
    SS Wilson vs Cedeno
    Lf Bay vs Milledge
    Cf Mclouth vs Cutch
    Rf Nady vs Jones

    IMO the only clear advantages the 08 team had were at 1b and LF. I also feel JW is a slightly better than Cedeno. Defensively the current team looks to be significantly better overall. The starting pitching also looks to be significantly better. The bullpen is a little worse. This team also has 2 minor leaguers in waiting who can be significant upgrades.

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Lup View Post
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    Many people have posted in the past how the 2008 team was a decent team. It was a pretty good offensive team, but poor defensively and had no pitching. That team in all likelihood would have reached 72-75 wins had there been no trades. I feel this team is as good as that one and potentially significantly better.

    Lineups
    C Doumit vs Doumit
    1b LaRoche vs Clement
    2b Freddy vs Iwamura
    3b Bautista vs LaRoche
    SS Wilson vs Cedeno
    Lf Bay vs Milledge
    Cf Mclouth vs Cutch
    Rf Nady vs Jones

    IMO the only clear advantages the 08 team had were at 1b and LF. I also feel JW is a slightly better than Cedeno. Defensively the current team looks to be significantly better overall. The starting pitching also looks to be significantly better. The bullpen is a little worse. This team also has 2 minor leaguers in waiting who can be significant upgrades.
    Defensively the current teams is FAR better than that 2008 team.

    We debated about this before LUP and you aren't getting me to budge.... the best thing that Huntington IMO is doing is eliminating the massive gaps and holes that have a domino affect on a team and bringing all of these things to at least an average platform before better talent can help put it over the top.

    the first thing (and this comes with construction of a team) is thaty you have to look at your pitching staff. Pitching staff is like a Franchise QB. The starting rotation is honestly that important. I just placed some numbers for the Pirates 92 infield. I can guarantee that anyone just relying on memory would've thought that infield was better than that. the facts are, it was a crummy, ****ty, awful infield that most guys would've wanted cut for being too cheap or not being proven enough .... that 1992 team as a whole wasn't great offensively. It had great pitching, same with the 1991 team.

    The Pirates starting rotation cannot strike guys out. they are one of, if not the worst in the majors at K's and K/9. We possess pretty much an entire Starting rotation compiled of "contact" pitchers. when you have this, that means that you better have at least an average defense behind you. In 2008, we didn't have that. Our outfield was one of the worst outfield's in baseball if going by UZR. You don't even need to go by UZR to know that Jason Bay had no range and couldn't cover even 1/4 of Left Field, combined with a weak arm and that Nate McLouth lacked aggressiveness with routes and the results with **** poor range in LF-CF. You ended up with a ton of singles and doubles etc... to biggest gaps

    Basically, the 2008 team was a terribly constructed team. We would've needed a collection of Starting Pitchers with extremely High K and K/9 rates and those guys were nowhere to be found, we had NOTHING in the minors to trade for just one and whatever the Yankees gave Sabathia is how much one of them costs.

    I've maintained that the proper way to build this team is defense first right now because that is what the starting Pitching dictates. I'm not suggesting that we go all out defense at the sole expense of offense, just that stronger defense trumps offense if it comes down to choosing and huntington has to often make those choices.

    You look at our infield and it is pretty solid. It's not phenominal but it's average at worse and THAT is exactly what you want even if the Offense is lacking. tough to find average defense and above average bats. Hell, it's tough to find average and average.

    The outfield is solid defensively. There's no hole defensively. Milledge and Cutch are pluses with range. Jones is a minus but not enough to where it's a hole. He's a -2.0 UZR wise... compared to someone like Bay who was a -18.4 for the Pirates <<<< that's a hole and liability.

    Average at worst defense in the infield and outfield should be good enough to get the Starting Rotations collection of contact pitchers some outs and quality starts and not a repeat of the horrendous 2008.

    LUP... I think that this team is a more well rounded team than that 2008 team. The 2008 team scored more and gave up a TON more. The 2010 team should be closer to what you shoul want, a team that "can" be middle of the pack in ERA and in RS and at that point I think you're getting closer to an average team/.500 record. That 2008 team had no chance of .500 with the liabilities in the outfield defensively and that starting rotation.

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    C Doumit vs Doumit
    1b LaRoche vs Clement.....[HIGH-LIGHT]not even close.... Laroche[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    2b Freddy vs Iwamura.....[HIGH-LIGHT]push[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    3b Bautista vs LaRoche....[HIGH-LIGHT]push maybe a slight edge to Laroche[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    SS Wilson vs Cedeno....[HIGH-LIGHT]Wilson[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    Lf Bay vs Milledge.....[HIGH-LIGHT]Millidge is and has never been considered a good defensive OF'er but he gets the edge over Bay[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    Cf Mclouth vs Cutch....[HIGH-LIGHT]Mclouth wasn't/isn't close to a liability but got to go with Cutch[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    Rf Nady vs Jones.....[HIGH-LIGHT]Nady[/HIGH-LIGHT]


    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Defensively the current teams is [HIGH-LIGHT]FAR better [/HIGH-LIGHT]than that 2008 team.

    I don't think that's a fair assessment.
    Last edited by PittFaninVa; Jan-05-2010 at 03:09 PM.

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
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    C Doumit vs Doumit
    1b LaRoche vs Clement.....[HIGH-LIGHT]not even close.... (No data to even judge on this. all Clement has to do is catch the ball and hit above .200 until July and he'll have been better than Adam LaRoche) Laroche[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    2b Freddy vs Iwamura.....[HIGH-LIGHT]push[/HIGH-LIGHT] (Comes down to health for either, most likely a wash)
    3b Bautista vs LaRoche....[HIGH-LIGHT]push maybe a slight edge to Laroche[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    SS Wilson vs Cedeno....[HIGH-LIGHT]Wilson[/HIGH-LIGHT] (defense, wilson, offense they all stink. Wilson's defense can't offset what he can't do offensively)
    Lf Bay vs Milledge.....[HIGH-LIGHT]Millidge is and has never been considered a good defensive OF'er but he gets the edge over Bay[/HIGH-LIGHT] (Milledge has far superior range than Bay. Milledge was viewed as poor in CF, but in LF, Milledge's numbers last year were so much better than Bay's in LF, it wasn't even close)
    Cf Mclouth vs Cutch....[HIGH-LIGHT]Mclouth wasn't/isn't close to a liability but got to go with Cutch[/HIGH-LIGHT]McLouth was a liability, to ignore that is to be ingorant. His range sucked, his arm sucked. McLouth was a ***** as a player. Afraid of risks, afriad to **** up. It's why his defensive numbers sucked, he was afraid to make the wrong jump, wrong angle on a run... so he never tried. Look at his awful SB numbers for his speed. Guy was a ***** on the basepaths just lik in the OF. Afraid to run because he was scared ****less to get thrown out. the only plus to McLouth was his power. Ohter than that he is a below average Major leaguer and his numbers tell you that with the eyes having to back that fact up
    Rf Nady vs Jones.....[HIGH-LIGHT]Nady[/HIGH-LIGHT] If You get lucky as hell and Nady can

    A. stay healthy and B. overcome injuries this season. The chance of Jones repeating last year > Nady being healthy enough to produce good numbers. Nice try






    I don't think that's a fair assessment.
    Yes it is

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    Kip I agree with your assessment. This year's defense is far better than 08, sorry Pitfan.
    Doumit is clearly better defensively now.
    Clement is far worse.
    Iwamura is slightly better.
    JW is better, but Cedeno has the ability to be better than JW if he improves his concentration, but that hasn't happened yet.
    LaRoche is better than JB
    Milledge is better than the other JB
    Cutch is worlds better than Nate
    Nady is better than Jones

    The defense is better in 5 out of 8 spots

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Lup View Post
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    Kip I agree with your assessment. This year's defense is far better than 08, sorry Pitfan.
    Doumit is clearly better defensively now.
    Clement is far worse.
    Iwamura is slightly better.
    JW is better, but Cedeno has the ability to be better than JW if he improves his concentration, but that hasn't happened yet.
    LaRoche is better than JB
    Milledge is better than the other JB
    Cutch is worlds better than Nate
    Nady is better than Jones

    The defense is better in 5 out of 8 spots
    lup since kipper obviously can't read and respond to what has been written I will respond to you.

    My objection was to the statement that this years team is [HIGH-LIGHT]far better defensively[/HIGH-LIGHT] than the 2008 team. Other than Cutch being far superior to Nate in CF no other player is that much better than their counter part [HIGH-LIGHT]defensively[/HIGH-LIGHT]. Which would in itself validate my claim.
    Also Clement can't hold Laroche's jock [HIGH-LIGHT]defensively.[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    Last edited by PittFaninVa; Jan-05-2010 at 04:45 PM.

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
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    lup since kipper obviously can't read and respond to what has been written I will respond to you.

    My objection was to the statement that this years team is [HIGH-LIGHT]far better defensively[/HIGH-LIGHT] than the 2008 team. Other than Cutch being far superior to Nate in CF no other player is that much better than their counter part [HIGH-LIGHT]defensively[/HIGH-LIGHT]. Which would in itself validate my claim.
    Also Clement can't hold Laroche's jock [HIGH-LIGHT]defensively.[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    I don't think we'll know what Clement can do at 1st base until he has something like a half season under his belt, given he has almost no experience/record at that position. Not much to form an opinion on IMHO. I'm not trying to argue with you but he certainly is one of those question marks we've been talking about recently.
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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    That 2008 team could have won the world series...I can't believe they dismantled that team.
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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    I respect your opinion Pittfan, but disagree in this instance.

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Lup View Post
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    I respect your opinion Pittfan, but disagree in this instance.
    Doumit is clearly better defensively now.
    Clement is far worse.
    Iwamura is slightly better.
    JW is better, but Cedeno has the ability to be better than JW if he improves his concentration, but that hasn't happened yet.
    LaRoche is better than JB
    Milledge is better than the other JB
    Cutch is worlds better than Nate
    Nady is better than Jones

    Do you think that Milledge and Laroche are [HIGH-LIGHT]unquestionably far better [/HIGH-LIGHT]defensive players than Bay and Bautista?

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    I think Milledge is far better and laRoche is better.

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    Default Re: 2008 vs 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Lup View Post
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    I think Milledge is far better and laRoche is better.


    I would say Milledge last year wasn't much better the Bay but he has the potential to be much better.

    I did say that Laroche was better but not far better.....

    Doumit calls a better game and handles pitchers better now but just catching and throwing I'm not sure there is that great a difference.


    All in all I don't think the 2 teams were that much different defensively...not that much to make a difference.

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