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Thread: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

      
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    Default Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    I was listening to Joe Bendel on the way to work tonight and he was saying some pretty absurd things like he thinks Nutting is pocketing $150 million over the last 10 years (since evidently Nutting makes $15 mill a year over the last 10 years).

    His next guest was Dejan who proceeded to tell Bendel he was an idiot, in dulcet tones. Most notably in refuting the above made the point Nutting has never received a paycheck and none of the owners receive dividend checks on any profit.

    Nutting makes zero dollars by owning the Bucs.

    You are the man Dejan.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero



    So I'm guessing something finally got through to Dejan and he's no longer on his eternal quest to find out "where the money is going"?

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    I have no idea if Nutting is making money, but we all know that if he builds up the cash capital in the franchise or pays down the debt of the franchise, he is "making money." If he needs it in cash rather than equity, he can borrow against his ever-increasing equity stake in the franchise. Again, no idea what the true story is here, or if he is paying down debt and/or building cash reserves rather than paying dividends, but it is not as simply as he is not getting a dividend or a salary.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by PE1 View Post
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    I have no idea if Nutting is making money, but we all know that if he builds up the cash capital in the franchise or pays down the debt of the franchise, he is "making money."

    It's only "money" if the value and worth of the Franchise increases and he cashes out and leaves ownership. Thusfar he's shown no indication of doing so and has indicated that he wants this to be a long term family venture that his daughters inherit down the road. so Bob nutting isn't making any money. He's no different than any other owner that sees their Franchises value increase by default. Currently, the Pirates are worth the 2nd lowest amount in MLB. Nutting obviously isn't pocketing enough cash

    If he needs it in cash rather than equity, he can borrow against his ever-increasing equity stake in the franchise.

    No he can't because the Pirates are a partnership. He'd have to get permission from others on the board and there's no ****ing way they are going to allow Bob Nutting to take money, especially when it could add to the debt ratio if it's not balanced out long term.

    Again, no idea what the true story is here, or if he is paying down debt and/or building cash reserves rather than paying dividends, but it is not as simply as he is not getting a dividend or a salary.

    No doubt he's paying down the debt. To an extent he has to. Isn't more than half of this country *****ing that we need to pay down the national debt? Same concept. It's easy to spend, harder to pay things off. now, I don't believe he's allowed to use revenue sharing money for that, but it doesn't mean he's not using local revenues and then utilizing all of the revenue sharing cash and such for payroll etc... He's also adding a good bit of capital annually which revenue sharing money is allowed for. The Dominican complex is one of those capital investments allowed by revenue sharing. Buying the new Single A team and moving them into the Bradenton complex and the money going into that entire ordeal. That's this years big capital investment which is again... allowed by the rules for revenue sharing... There's a lot allowed by the revenue sharing rules that fans and mediots have NO IDEA how much is being spent on, which is why accurate "profit" numbers are never presented.
    I personally don't really care. What I see in the past 2 years are ...

    1. Most money spent in the MLB in the Amateur Draft.
    2. A brand new Dominican complex that is one of the nicest in the country.
    3. Completely revamping Pirates City and the entire complex down in Bradenton
    4. Doubling of hired Scouts in the system.
    5. Tripling the Latin American signing budget (which I recently read that we spent all $3 million of or close to it. I had no idea).

    If he's paying down debt to help the long term strength of the Franchise, fine. I've seen Bankruptcy in sports, just 6-7 years ago MLB came after the team for getting above MLB's approved debt/ratio.

    But... I also see money being spent in a lot of areas that greatly improve the foundation of this organization. Without a strong foundation to ANYTHING, all you have is something that will instantly collapse. All of the stuff I listed above where money has been spent in the past few years... I'd rather see money spent in those places than given to over the hill free Agent vets with multiple injuries who aren't worth enough WAR points to make a difference and do nothing but block young players and treat the limited money we have like toilet paper.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    As I said, I have no idea if he is doing it, but Nutting owns a percentage of the partnership. I believe he can take a personal loan, using that interest as collateral - thereby making "money" basd upon teh increasing value of teh franchise. The franchise cannot take on debt without partnership approval, but I believe Nutting can take on personal debt using his stake as collateral. Were he to default, it would not affect the franchise except that the bank would step in and own his shares and presumably sell them to collect tehir money back. Anyway, I don't have enough money to have studied this to be certain, but I believe this is how it works. As I said, I have no idea if he is doing that at all.

    As for the rest, I agree that I do not care if Nutting makes money - one way or the other. All the things you mentioned are nice, but overall I suspect that teh Pirates spend less as an organization than all but the bottom 5 teams in the game and have for the last 10 years. Given their dismal performance during that time, I wish they would try something new. I am a fan of baseball not finances so if they can spend 0 and win, I will be happy.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    Why would Nutting do any of that?

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    I don't know that he would. I was just pointing out that Nutting can create liquid assets out of his Pirates investment through loans without taking a salary or through dividends. Thus, increasing cash reserves and decreasing debt - which increase the value of his investment and increase his collateral - could result in cash in his pocket by increasing his loan resevoir. I have no idea if this is happening, I was just responding to what you said DK said.

    As for why, this is typically done to invest other places. Nutting takes the loan money he gets based on the value of his Pirate investment and invests in an emerging business, hoping to make much more than the interest he would pay. If he were, for example, looking for partners in a venture capital fund, he would haveto own a certain percentage to run the fund. Justa n example. No idea if this is happening and I don't care as long as teh Pirates put enough $$ into the team - throughout the org. - to be competitive. I dont think they are doing that now and have not seen anything to suggest they will do that in the future.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    Nutting isn't padding has bank account with team revenue as so many think, but he has made a boatload of money on paper over the last 15 years simply through appreciation. The most recent Forbes estimate valued the Pirates franchise at $288M. In 1995 that value was around $70M. He's made about 27% annually in equity. Pretty solid investment. It's no wonder why he isn't selling, but it has nothing to do with lining his pockets with yearly revenue sharing funds.

    As for paying down debt, that ability is very limited and very tightly regulated by MLB. Debt payments are one of the things that is looked at by league officials when teams open their books to MLB annually. Even if Nutting wanted to pay down debt, he isn't allowed to do much.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by Daskid View Post
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    Nutting isn't padding has bank account with team revenue as so many think, but he has made a boatload of money on paper over the last 15 years simply through appreciation. The most recent Forbes estimate valued the Pirates franchise at $288M. In 1995 that value was around $70M. He's made about 27% annually in equity. Pretty solid investment. It's no wonder why he isn't selling, but it has nothing to do with lining his pockets with yearly revenue sharing funds.

    As for paying down debt, that ability is very limited and very tightly regulated by MLB. Debt payments are one of the things that is looked at by league officials when teams open their books to MLB annually. Even if Nutting wanted to pay down debt, [HIGH-LIGHT]he isn't allowed to do much[/HIGH-LIGHT].
    He's not allowed to do it with Revenue sharing monies. He's allowed to with local revenues (gate, concessions, parking, tv, radio etc...) ... to what extent... I don't really know. You're right in that there's probably a limit by MLB unless the debt level in the ratio is fairly high.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by PE1 View Post
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    As I said, I have no idea if he is doing it, but Nutting owns a percentage of the partnership. I believe he can take a personal loan, using that interest as collateral - thereby making "money" basd upon teh increasing value of teh franchise. The franchise cannot take on debt without partnership approval, but I believe Nutting can take on personal debt using his stake as collateral. Were he to default, it would not affect the franchise except that the bank would step in and own his shares and presumably sell them to collect tehir money back. Anyway, I don't have enough money to have studied this to be certain, but I believe this is how it works. As I said, I have no idea if he is doing that at all.

    As for the rest, I agree that I do not care if Nutting makes money - one way or the other. All the things you mentioned are nice, but overall I suspect that teh Pirates spend less as an organization than all but the bottom 5 teams in the game and have for the last 10 years. Given their dismal performance during that time, I wish they would try something new. I am a fan of baseball not finances so if they can spend 0 and win, I will be happy.
    Quote Originally Posted by PE1 View Post
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    I don't know that he would. I was just pointing out that Nutting can create liquid assets out of his Pirates investment through loans without taking a salary or through dividends. Thus, increasing cash reserves and decreasing debt - which increase the value of his investment and increase his collateral - could result in cash in his pocket by increasing his loan resevoir. I have no idea if this is happening, I was just responding to what you said DK said.

    As for why, this is typically done to invest other places. Nutting takes the loan money he gets based on the value of his Pirate investment and invests in an emerging business, hoping to make much more than the interest he would pay. If he were, for example, looking for partners in a venture capital fund, he would haveto own a certain percentage to run the fund. Justa n example. No idea if this is happening and I don't care as long as teh Pirates put enough $$ into the team - throughout the org. - to be competitive. I dont think they are doing that now and have not seen anything to suggest they will do that in the future.
    I'm almost positive that there's a couple things in here that definitely can't happen or due to the partnership set up etc... make it impossible to do what you are suggesting... I just have to almost stare at this long and even then, I probably wouldn't be able to explain myself without presenting something that was both confusing or caused one to go cross-eyed.

    I'll see if I can't find an answer. Maybe daskid has one

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    I'm speculating since I'm not a banker, but I'd guess that there's a difference between shares in a privately held company such as the Pirates and a publicly held one with tradable stock. I would assume any changes in ownership would be subject to board approval and that fact might make the ownership stake unusable from a direct collateral standpoint as it is not necessarily a liquid asset.

    Or I could be completely wrong.

    But to PE1's point, that ownership stake definitely adds to Nutting's net worth and that net worth definitely increases Nutting's ability to take out a big time loan. There are "personal guarantees" and other things that banks can do to justify lowering the collateral to loan ratio for fat cat borrowers.

    Owning the Pirates could definitely allow him to have more cash. Even if he isn't taking it directly from the team.

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    ok so now im baffled. If nutting or owners are not taking dividends or paychecks, then where is the stink about nutting pocketing boatloads of cash coming from?

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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    Reading this ****in thread.......NOW I feel SORRY for Nutting.....****, he owns the team for several years now and DOESN'T TAKE A DIME OUT OF IT?????

    Get real people.....who in the **** would own a business, especially one that revolves around MILLIONS of dollars a year, and not get any cash out of it????
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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    PS, I am not trying to start/keep going the "is the team pocketing money" threads...
    BUT, I don't like Nutting, I'm not gonna start liking Nutting and I definitely will never believe you guys that he is doing all this altruistically....simply from the bottom of his heart.....The guy is making $$$$ and spending $$$$ owning/running this organization.
    To think otherwise is......is......MONGOLOIDIAN!!!!!!!!

    He at least gets a Co-Go Gas Card and lunch money doesn't he?????????
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    Default Re: Dejan is Also Now My Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by ranrod7 View Post
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    Reading this ****in thread.......NOW I feel SORRY for Nutting.....****, he owns the team for several years now and DOESN'T TAKE A DIME OUT OF IT?????

    Get real people.....who in the **** would own a business, especially one that revolves around MILLIONS of dollars a year, and not get any cash out of it????
    He's not getting cash out of it, but he and the other owners have netted an estimated $218M in assets over the last 15 years.

    I wouldn't feel too sorry for him.

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