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Thread: Accountability

      
  1. #1
    wiggles's Avatar
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    Default Accountability

    This is what ****es me off. Management has been preaching about accountability and changing the culture but I read headlines like this.

    Spring training: Pirates stand by struggling Hart

    Why announce your having a competition when you **** well know your going to put Hart in there for the 5th Spot. Hart has been Awful. I don't give a **** about upside. If it is a true competition put the person in whom gives you the best shot of winning today!!!!!! McCutchen deserves that spot. Let hart work his crap out in the minors. If the Pirates give that spot to hart, there is no accountability. YOu might as well go to 35th round draft pick and say, "hey it doesn'tmatter if you perform. We are going to give your spot to the 20th round pick kid, even if he performing considerably worse." What are your players going to think? Why even freaking bother, management going to put who they want in there reguardless of how I do. Some freaking competition huh.

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    just_ridin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accountability

    "Teams that make decisions based on the first three starts of spring training are the type that end up tabbing Ron Villone to start opening day. I get the sense that readers are in a rush to have management anoint Daniel McCutchen as the fifth starter, but the schedule clearly illustrates there is no rush: The Pirates have 2 1/2 weeks until they face the Dodgers, and neither Hart nor McCutchen has pitched the equivalent of a full game yet this spring."

    You got mentioned in an article Wiggly!!

    I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. If Hart keeps it up I'm sure he'll be starting the season in Indy. I don't see the urgency to get DMac annointed as the competition winner right now. He's solid, they know what he can do, and he'll step in and do it on the 5th day if asked.

    Hart's the one that needs the work, and if you can tell me that he can do it in minor league camp and Kerrigan can watch tape of him...then why do we even need a pitching coach on staff at all?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by just_ridin View Post
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    "Teams that make decisions based on the first three starts of spring training are the type that end up tabbing Ron Villone to start opening day. I get the sense that readers are in a rush to have management anoint Daniel McCutchen as the fifth starter, but the schedule clearly illustrates there is no rush: The Pirates have 2 1/2 weeks until they face the Dodgers, and neither Hart nor McCutchen has pitched the equivalent of a full game yet this spring."

    You got mentioned in an article Wiggly!!

    I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. If Hart keeps it up I'm sure he'll be starting the season in Indy. I don't see the urgency to get DMac annointed as the competition winner right now. He's solid, they know what he can do, and he'll step in and do it on the 5th day if asked.

    [HIGH-LIGHT]Hart's the one that needs the work, and if you can tell me that he can do it in minor league camp and Kerrigan can watch tape of him...then why do we even need a pitching coach on staff at all?[/HIGH-LIGHT]
    If Hart goes to minor league camp (which isn't going to happen) there is no need for Kerrigan to watch him on tape. He's there on most days and if Hart was to pitch a bullpen Kerrigan definitely would be there.
    Last edited by PittFaninVa; Mar-18-2010 at 09:04 AM.

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    just_ridin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
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    If Hart goes to minor league camp (which isn't going to happen) there is no need for Kerrigan to watch him on tape. He's there on most days and if Hart was to pitch on bullpen Kerrigan definitely would be there.
    but...since he's not going there anyway...the point is moot. (that's fun to say)

    I just don't get what the big deal is...I just don't believe that Hart will make the big league club if his control continues at this rate...

    seriously....does anyone REALLY think he's going to be the 5th starter walking 15 (or whatever the # is) every 3-4 innings?

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    Kipper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by just_ridin View Post
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    but...since he's not going there anyway...the point is moot. (that's fun to say)

    I just don't get what the big deal is...I just don't believe that Hart will make the big league club if his control continues at this rate...

    seriously....does anyone REALLY think he's going to be the 5th starter walking 15 (or whatever the # is) every 3-4 innings?
    There is no big deal. It's just been a few weeks with nothing to really whine and complain about so... this finally gives people the ability to ***** and complain.

    You can't keep the wife from nagging for too long

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    Kipper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by just_ridin View Post
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    "Teams that make decisions based on the first three starts of spring training are the type that end up tabbing Ron Villone to start opening day. I get the sense that readers are in a rush to have management anoint Daniel McCutchen as the fifth starter, but the schedule clearly illustrates there is no rush: The Pirates have 2 1/2 weeks until they face the Dodgers, and neither Hart nor McCutchen has pitched the equivalent of a full game yet this spring."

    You got mentioned in an article Wiggly!!

    I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. If Hart keeps it up I'm sure he'll be starting the season in Indy. I don't see the urgency to get DMac annointed as the competition winner right now. He's solid, they know what he can do, and he'll step in and do it on the 5th day if asked.

    Hart's the one that needs the work, and if you can tell me that he can do it in minor league camp and Kerrigan can watch tape of him...then why do we even need a pitching coach on staff at all?
    X2

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    Default Re: Accountability

    If Hart ever amounts to anything more than an average middle innings reliever, I'll eat my hat.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by williamjpellas View Post
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    If Hart ever amounts to anything more than an average middle innings reliever, I'll eat my hat.
    I think he could be a decent back end BP guy with a fastball that hits 97mph and other quality pitches.

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    Default Re: Accountability

    These would be the same "quality pitches" with which he walks 16 batters in 5 innings this spring, and with which he stunk out PNC last season, I presume.

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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by williamjpellas View Post
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    These would be the same "quality pitches" with which he walks 16 batters in 5 innings this spring, and with which he stunk out PNC last season, I presume.
    There's a difference between "stuff" and command of the stuff. Hart has a lot of movement on his pitches which is what gives him the "quality pitches" or "stuff". He just doesn't have command over it or control .

    Move him into the pen and rather than worry about the command over a duration of 6+ innings you are just concentrating on 3 outs. It's really the same indset but for some reason it changes from SP to BP. His command should be better from a BP standpoint

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    Default Re: Accountability

    He might have "quality stuff" but he certainly doesn't have "quality pitches". To me, "quality pitches" are what you get from a winning combination of raw velocity plus lateral and/or vertical movement plus control---of which control is the most important, then movement, then velocity, in that order. There's been tons of guys who could throw it a million miles an hour, as long as you're not real particular about where the ball is going. We all want the next Tom Seaver, who throws 98 MPH and can put it in a keyhole. But pitchers like that are exceedingly rare. I'll say again that the St. Louis Cardinals almost never seem to have so-called "dominant arms", but somehow they win and win and win with a staff full of "pitch to contact" types, a strong and expertly managed lineup, and great defense. I'll take that any day over ill-advised experiments like this one, at least, if it continues into the regular season.

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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by williamjpellas View Post
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    He might have "quality stuff" but he certainly doesn't have "quality pitches". To me, "quality pitches" are what you get from a winning combination of raw velocity plus lateral and/or vertical movement plus control---of which control is the most important, then movement, then velocity, in that order. There's been tons of guys who could throw it a million miles an hour, as long as you're not real particular about where the ball is going. We all want the next Tom Seaver, who throws 98 MPH and can put it in a keyhole. But pitchers like that are exceedingly rare. I'll say again that the St. Louis Cardinals almost never seem to have so-called "dominant arms", but somehow they win and win and win with a staff full of "pitch to contact" types, a strong and expertly managed lineup, and great defense. I'll take that any day over ill-advised experiments like this one, at least, if it continues into the regular season.
    Jose Deleon, Oliver Perez both had quality stuff, finding the plate is another thing. On the other hand, Brandon Moss is now 0 for 22, although I am sure 90% of his outs have been hard hit balls directly at someone. I seriously believe Hart will make the 5th starter spot no matter what. As for the Cards I simply go back to Rick Ainkel, great arm, stirke zone, "Just a bit outside."

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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by just_ridin View Post
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    "Teams that make decisions based on the first three starts of spring training are the type that end up tabbing Ron Villone to start opening day. I get the sense that readers are in a rush to have management anoint Daniel McCutchen as the fifth starter, but the schedule clearly illustrates there is no rush: The Pirates have 2 1/2 weeks until they face the Dodgers, and neither Hart nor McCutchen has pitched the equivalent of a full game yet this spring."

    You got mentioned in an article Wiggly!!

    I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. If Hart keeps it up I'm sure he'll be starting the season in Indy. I don't see the urgency to get DMac annointed as the competition winner right now. He's solid, they know what he can do, and he'll step in and do it on the 5th day if asked.

    Hart's the one that needs the work, and if you can tell me that he can do it in minor league camp and Kerrigan can watch tape of him...then why do we even need a pitching coach on staff at all?
    As an alternative, send him to Altoona, bring him back to Pittsburgh in between starts to work with Joe. I am just looking for the best solution to it all.

  14. #14
    Kipper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by williamjpellas View Post
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    He might have "quality stuff" but he certainly doesn't have "quality pitches". To me, "quality pitches" are what you get from a winning combination of raw velocity plus lateral and/or vertical movement plus control---of which control is the most important, then movement, then velocity, in that order. There's been tons of guys who could throw it a million miles an hour, as long as you're not real particular about where the ball is going. We all want the next Tom Seaver, who throws 98 MPH and can put it in a keyhole. But pitchers like that are exceedingly rare. I'll say again that the St. Louis Cardinals almost never seem to have so-called "dominant arms", but somehow they win and win and win with a staff full of "pitch to contact" types, a strong and expertly managed lineup, and great defense. I'll take that any day over ill-advised experiments like this one, at least, if it continues into the regular season.
    You're looking for "quality end results" . Hart doesn't possess that. He possess quality pitches that he can't command

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    Default Re: Accountability

    Speaking of accountability, as i am usually a "management apologist" (or whatever the current term is), i believe that they made quite a grievous error when they openly said that the 5th spot was open for competition between hart and D. mccutchen. It sounds good to say that there is competition in camp and all that PR, but in reality all that it does is inflame armchair scouts who dont have a real clue as to what is really going on with these players and their coach. For all we know kerrigan and russell could be telling hart to those his worst pitches over and over, and over again. When a pitcher walks batter after batter, he tends to start trying to throw strikes and usually those strikes are fastballs right over the heart of the plate and then the pitcher gets pounded. As i recall, hart didnt actually give up a bunch of runs. This leads me to believe that they are making hart throw his problem stuff, and not pitches he can throw for strikes. Which leads me to believe hart is going north. Which will bring down all sorts of **** because management had to tell us about the competition, and if the armchair scouts dont like the "winner", its stands to reason that the good for nothing media wont either and i am going to have to hear about it for weeks. so anyway, for pete's sake, stop actually naming specific players when you open your mouths, NH and FC!! Think before you speak out loud. You can say you have identified players who are going to be a core player moving forward, but then dont name them! Let us guess, that way when you trade them, you dont look like a buffoon! If there is competition for a spot, dont name the competitors, let us guess who is fighting who and that way when you pick the guy no one likes, you can say hey i never said so and so was in the competition. Plausible deny-ability, learn it, live it, love it.

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