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Thread: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

      
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    Shaker100's Avatar
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    Default Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    My preferred Rotation
    1. Maholm: Keep him for now even though he would bring back more than Duke at this point. At his best he’s an innings eater. I’ve seen him pitch efficiently but it’s getting more difficult to remember when.
    2. Lincoln: Hopefully he blossoms. By year end he could be our best starter. By default he’s not far from that now.
    3. Ohlendorf: Needs to finish strong. I wouldn’t guarantee him a rotation spot next year but at this point who’s taking it from him?
    4. Hayden Penn: Bring him up, install him in the rotation and let’s see what he can do.
    5. Charlie Morton: I know, I know. This guy is maddeningly inconsistent and unable to aggressively attack the strike zone. I’d love to see him coming out of the ‘pen but that may not happen until next year if at all. Give him one more shot at the rotation.
    Others:
    6. Karstens: He’s been solid but not spectacular. He profiles as a 5th starter at best. I’d rather see Penn take his rotation spot but we’ll see.
    7. Zach Duke: I’d offer him around and see what he brings back. If nothing then send him to Indy if he has any options left. I’d much rather take my chances with Penn or Morton because they have some upside. We’ve seen enough of what Duke brings to the table and for the last 13 months it’s not much at all.
    8. Daniel McCutchen: probably a AAA caliber guy who could fill in as spot starter. Don’t we have 5 or 6 of these guys?
    Trades:
    Finally if your last name starts with the letter D and you are on the Pirates 25 man roster, there is an excellent chance you'll be somewhere else by July 31st. Dotel, Donnelly , Duke and Doumit stand good chances to go. Duke obviously is injured and pitching ..like Zach Duke when he does pitch so he wouldn't bring back much. Dotel would bring a moderate prospect, Donnelly not even that much but Doumit could bring back some value in the right deal.
    Last edited by Shaker100; Jul-06-2010 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Hmm. I actually almost disagree across the board on the trade ideas. Duke is ok to trade in my opinion...I have never liked him and never have thought he's very good. Little return is likely, but that's basically what we're getting now.

    Doumit I think we should hang on to. I dont see who takes his place and frankly unless we're offered a McLouth type deal for him...minimum AA players...I would prefer to keep him ourselves.

    If the most we could get back from Dotel is a moderate prospect I'd rather hold on to my closer who also has a good-value option available to us. Continuity in our bullpen is something I think would go a long way for this team.

    Donnelly is not great but because he wouldn't bring much, again, he's not a guy I would mind keeping around.

    Another couple quick notes:
    -You mention keeping Maholm and I would likewise agree with that. In terms of future he has the best likely future of the pitchers on our current staff besides possibly Lincoln...but again I still think Lincoln is at best a 4-5th starter.
    -Ohlendorf is a mystery to me. I dont really like him, but I dont really have too much reason to dislike him either. I think he's a softy who shouldn't figure into this teams plans for the future, but at the same time he did perform at least admirably last season. In all honesty, though, I think what we're seeing this year may be what we can come to expect from Ross
    -Lincoln= I hope you're right about him and I hope he figures everything out. However, with the no-movement fastball and his tight-breaking (breaking out of the zone mostly) curve ball I just dont see him as a top of the rotation, reliable #1-2 guy.
    -Penn...no.
    -Morton still has some upside, but he cant even figure it out in AAA...proving that AAA is EXACTLY where he SHOULD be.
    -I completely disagree with you about Daniel McCutchen. How is McCutchen any different than Paul Maholm? He had the second best ERA and the second best WHIP during his time at AAA...only topped by Lincoln. Furthermore, he also is a bit of an innings eater and certainly can perform at least as well as Zach Duke and possibly as well as, like I said, Paul Maholm. He had a rough start to the season, but went back down to AAA and performed well and performed well his last outing in the bigs. I am not sure how much he would or should figure into the teams future, but he's similar in mold to Paul Maholm......except that Paul has more experience and has been producing in the majors longer than McCutchen and is the same age. YES...I take Maholm over McCutchen...but McCutchen isn't as bad as his numbers look.
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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Just to pull one thing out of your post: I think you're missing what Karstens has done for us so far this season...

    Now, I realize QS & ERA aren't the best of all possible stats, but if you look at the rest of it, Karstens has done a comparable job to both Pauly & Ohlie as of now. Also, don't forget 6 of Karstens' appearances were coming out of the 'pen, mopping up and eating innings when either Morton or one of the other starters imploded.

    I'm most assuredly not saying Frankarsteins is a top-of-the-rotation pitcher. Except on OUR team, he really has done as well as any of the other starters, including ZD (and actually, he's done better than ZD, but that's not saying much this season).

    Also, I really am about done with the delegation / relegation"he's a #3 or 4 pitcher," and the like. Those numbers were relevant when teams were using a 4-man rotation. Pretty much now, all there is is #1, and then the rest, unless you're describing your "#5 guy" as someone (or, as is more usual for almost ALL teams someone[s]) you're throwing out there every fifth day hoping you have a 50-50 chance of winning, and that he'll go 5-2/3 or more, and eat up the innings to get the BP some rest.

    Just my $0.02.
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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    The only reason I'd rather not have Karstens in the rotation the rest of the way is the upside and will he be in that position next year? Did we get the most we can out of him?

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    cf2, I agree with your thought process. Karstens went into the 7th on the 4th and was given some leash as if he was a top notch starter. This may help him grow and stretch it out. He will not be a top notch starter, but a good rotation guy. He's been as good as anyone else. If he's allowed to pitch, he'll get better....................

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Long term, I don't think Karstens has the consistency. I will say this, when Karstens has command on the movement of his pitches, he can be pretty decent. His breaking balls move really well which is needed to make up for the lackluster FB.

    For right now, IMO you don't demote someone getting the job done. I'm still ****ed that Russell keeps sitting Milledge even with questionable Defense, he's hitting above .270 which is a luxury on this team and for Ryan Church. This team needs the best that it can currently get and Karstens is providing that so he should remain until he proves otherwise...
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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaker100 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Trades:
    Finally if your last name starts with the letter D and you are on the Pirates 25 man roster, there is an excellent chance you'll be somewhere else by July 31st. Dotel, Donnelly , Duke and Doumit stand good chances to go. Duke obviously is injured and pitching ..like Zach Duke when he does pitch so he wouldn't bring back much. Dotel would bring a moderate prospect, Donnelly not even that much but Doumit could bring back some value in the right deal.
    Three names to consider at the Deadline: Doumit, Jones, Morton.
    Doumit
    - Doumit's attitude suspension from last season still weighs on the back
    of NH's mind.
    - Playing him at first seemed to be an attempt to increase his trade
    value (that failed!) and allow time for JJ to catch more often.
    - Indy's Erik Kratz can probably be a solid David Ross type catcher in the
    event that Doumit is moved.
    - The rumored trade attempt of Morton for C Chris Snyder seems to signal an intent
    to move Doumit.

    Jones
    - Did Doumit's playing first base signal an intent to move one of Doumit/Jones at
    the deadline?
    I do not advocate trading Garret Jones. I like him and want him to be there for the resurgence of the Bucs. However, I suspect NH is considering it. There are some similarities with the Mclouth situation at the time of his trade. I saw this comment somewhere else the other day and it does seem to have a ring of truth to it:

    "Jones, on the other hand, is a classic 'Nate the Great' trade candidate. Teams (SF to name one) are already showing interest in Jones, and if NH is 'blown away' he will undoubtably pull the trigger. Jones is 29, so 5 years older than most other players on the sqd, and a classic 'moneyball' type guy to move."

    Morton - The attempted trade for Snyder signals that Morton is probably on the block.

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    We'll see, now, how good this "best management team in sports" is. IF they trade Jones...and if they dont sign some SP in the offseason then I will start to question the way they're building. They have all their top prospects up here already and everyone else is realistically years away...if they trade a piece that helps the team now to improve the minors for later and in the process not picking up pieces that can help the youth NOW...then they are completely wasting the time we have with our prospects: Cutch, Tabata, Walker, and Pedro.
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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Jones looks good for two more years, if we need him, If you accept he's an average guy, not a big time home run guy. If he performed well, he would become a trade to a big city that was good for both teams.

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Keep Jones because, albeit "average," he's better than most others we have.

    Because he is a lefty, once pitched well, I believe that Duke could be a successful #4 on a better team in need of pitching. I would be shocked if no market develops for him (meaning two or more suitors).

    There is precious little pitching depth in baseball and Duke will be welcomed by some team(s).

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    [HIGH-LIGHT]Keep Jones because, albeit "average," he's better than most others we have.[/HIGH-LIGHT]

    I meant he hits for a better average than power. He hits for a decent average with some pop.

    Church has been hitting and fielding well lately, but I would not let Milledge rot! Milledge needs to play more and he was showing signs of improving......Maybe he missed some signs?

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Fair enough, but what I meant was that compared to other teams' power and RBI suppliers, Jones'
    production is average.

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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Kipper...I've been railing about Church over Milledge on PG Plus. Wanna bet Lastings sits tonight? After all he had a 2 hit game incl a HR...gotta get RC going ya know.

    As for our starters (the orig subj of this post), forgive me if none of them excite me. Top potential for Dorf and Lincoln are #3's. Maholm has proven to be a good #4. The rest (incl Duke) are fringe Major League pitchers. We need Wainright/Carpenter types. Do we have any?
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    Default Re: Second half rotation? and D spells trade bait.

    Church over Milledge is another reason why Russell should be fired.
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