Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 123

Thread: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

      
  1. #1
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    By now everyone knows that the Pirates financial books and records have been exposed by a leak. Frank Coonelly and Bob Nutting have addressed this in statements and it's left a lot of questions as well.

    If all you do is read headlines that distort and manipulate the facts when it reads "Pirates make $34 million profit" then you really don't care to know the truth. I'll just assume you to not be a true fan. Just someone that can read headline titles. Anyone that has taken a look at the actual documents that were leaked, read any of the other fine Pirates Blogs or read between the lines of whatever drivel the Pittsburgh media pushes out, know the truth, finally.

    http://deadspin.com/5615096/mlb-conf...-to-see-part-1

    That truth is that the Pittsburgh Pirates and Bob Nutting aren't pocketing profits. It's been well written by Wilbur T. Miller the differences between Profits and Cash.

    Now, keep in mindóand this is another point that many fans donít like to hearómaking profits and taking money out arenít the same thing. ďProfitsĒ are just a line on a balance sheet. They donít represent cash. If the money stays in the partnership, the partners have still ďprofited,Ē they just havenít realized the profit yet. And thatís just operating profits. The primary profit from ownership of a MLB franchise comes from the appreciation in the value of the franchise, which the owners donít realize until the team is sold. Itís vital to make the distinction between profits and cash distributions. The latter represents actual money in somebodyís pocket. The former doesnít.

    http://www.piratesprospects.com/2010/08/nutting-opens-the-books-but-will-it-make-a-difference.html#ixzz0xekazuiJ
    Another truth that has occurred since the leak is that the Pittsburgh Pirates organization isn't sitting on this mountain of profits that they could use to bump payroll into the $65-90 million range we see other similar market teams spending. There is of course the argument and myth that all the Pittsburgh Pirates need is an owner with deep pockets that is willing to goto the bank and transfer funds from their Scrooge McDuck vault back into the Pittsburgh Pirates to make up the $20-30 million the Pirates don't have in profits to "compete". I've even seen it recently floating around the internet as the uneducated whiners of the web and Mark Madden throw out mentions of Ron Burkle and his Billions and how they'd make a difference somehow. He's a Billionaire, the Penguins are successful and the Pens have payroll at the Cap Ceiling

    Let's begin with the myth about how Ron Burkle or prior to him the hero was Mark Cuban would spend massive amounts of millions on the Pittsburgh Pirates for the long suffering fans. How they would toss all of their billions back into the club when needed. The problem is that Ron Burkle hasn't done that so why expect something that's never happened? The Pittsburgh Penguins when they competed in a similar economic platform as the Pirates currently do in MLB weren't spending Ron Burkle's billions to put a more competitive team on the ice. Ron Burkle's billions weren't being spent to make sure that the Pittsburgh Penguins were spending the same as all of the other mid and small market teams. The Pittsburgh Penguins turned out alright.


    During those seasons from 2001-02 to the Lockout in 2004-05 the Pittsburgh Penguins finished with horrible records, due to horrible teams and there was no money being put into payroll via Ron Burkle's billionaire fortune tp improve the product on the ice. (I used those seasons because that was the start of the Pittsburgh Penguins slashing payroll with Jagr in July 2001.)

    * 2001-02 (4th worst record by points in the NHL ) 28-41-8-5 (69 points)
    * 2002-03 (2nd worst record by points in the NHL ) 27-44-6-5 (65 points)
    * 2003-04 (Worst record by points in the NHL ) 23-47-8-4 (58 points)

    With a Salary Cap in place, with a very fair system of revenue sharing in place the Pittsburgh Penguins in the first season post NHL lockout in 2005-06 spent just $23.1 million on payroll. This was the 2nd lowest in all of the NHL behind the Washington Capitals. In 2006-07 the Pittsburgh Penguins increased their payroll by $3 million despite everyone increasing payrolls much higher and finished that season ranked dead last, 30th in the NHL in Payroll. $26.29 million.

    Here's a chart for easier viewing..


    http://content.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=1

    As you can easily see, payroll didn't increase by a large amount until additional revenues came in for the Pittsburgh Penguins to spend. Those additional revenues came in, in the form of additional gates from the Regular season + concessions + merchandise which saw a nice bump that season. Add on top of that the added revenue that comes from the Playoffs with the higher ticket prices and then additional advertising.. It's amazing what winning can do for a club. What competent management and years worth of positive draft results can do. Ron Burkle and Mario Lemieux didn't spend money that the team wasn't pulling in to build a winner, they accumulated talent through years of drafts and increased payroll above the leagues minimum after they started winning. It took until the 2008-09 season that the Pittsburgh Penguins would hit the Cap Ceiling. By this point they had already gone to the Stanley Cup Finals.

    The table below shows how attendance plummeted right along with the Pens payroll and performance and naturally increased slightly ahead of the payroll increasing


    http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2008

    Now, in no way, shape or form am I trying to pit ownership of one team against another. So please refrain from responding with anything that alludes to that. I'm simply downplaying myths that the media and some Pittsburgh Pirates fans have long believed. I'm a life long Pens fan that's been rooting for them when the only players worth a crap on the team were Mario Lemieux, Warren Young and Craig Simpson. I've watched every game for years and discuss them pretty heavily during the hockey season. I also understand the restrictions the Pittsburgh Penguins operated under in an outdated venue like the Civic/Mellon Arena. I'm just using one successful team in Pittsburgh to show how "deep pockets" and paying for payroll through personal wealth is a myth.

    So where does this leave the Pittsburgh Pirates? It leaves them needing the support of the fans. If you want the Pittsburgh Pirates to spend more money then you need to help support them by attending games. If you want to see players like Andrew McCutchen, Pedro Alvarez, Jose Tabata, Neil Walker etc.. retained, then you need to head down to PNC Park as often as possible, turn on FSN-Pittsburgh as often as possible and support the team. By carrying childish little personal tantrum protests of not spending money on the Pittsburgh Pirates product or giving in to that evil owner named Bob Nutting, you're the one that is to blame for the Pittsburgh Pirates not spending money. Let me repeat this since I know some people might get their panties in a bunch. You're responsible for the Pittsburgh Pirates not spending the type of money you expect them to, not responsible for them losing for 18 straight years. By not supporting the Pittsburgh Pirates you're the one to blame for the Pirates having to trade off players "when they get good" or whatever it is that's whined about. That's another myth for another Article. *note* I'm not saying that people have to enjoy a losing product or even support it, you just lose the right to complain about the product in regards to money, ownership when you contribute to the overall lack of revenue.

    I crafted an article 1+ years ago on a Message Board that no longer exists where I took to trying to put an end to the whining going on at the time about how if the Milwaukee Brewers were spending $90 Million or so on their Payroll in that small of a market, and the Pittsburgh Pirates should as well. I unfortunately do not have access to that Article anymore or the rough draft so here's a recreation attempt..

    The main focus here is on "Attendance". Attendance is a reason the Pittsburgh Penguins increased their Payroll. They received extra gates and concessions and such from increased attendance. Below is the Pittsburgh Pirates and Milwaukee Brewers attendance figures for 2009.

    2009 :


    http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2009

    Here's some average ticket prices and an estimate by simply multiplying the Average Ticket Price and Attendance. The Pittsburgh Pirates average ticket price at some point in 2009 was $15.39. Milwaukee's was $20.98.


    That folks, is a $48+ million difference in Payroll. Add to that the Milwaukee Brewers receive revenue sharing as well. This is money on top of what is received from Revenue Sharing.

    http://teammarketing.com.ismmedia.com/ISM3/std-content/repos/Top/Fan%20Cost%20Index/MLB/MLB%20FCI%2009.pdf

    With additional revenue from the gate comes the additional revenue from concessions. Using the currently leaked documents found at Deadspin.com and the information for attendance provided by ESPN, we'll take a quick look at the 2008 Pittsburgh Pirates and Tampa Bay Rays. Tampa Bay averaged about 2,000 more fans than the Pittsburgh Pirates per game that season and their concession revenue was around $3 million more. Take a look at Milwaukee's attendance figures and them being around 17,000 more per game than the Pittsburgh Pirates and just imagine how much more in concessions they are receiving.

    A lot of money. Money that the Pittsburgh Pirates don't have and won't have unless more people support them and come out to the ballpark.

    Yes, I know, it was lot of Numbers but the point remains, that the Pittsburgh Pirates cannot increase payroll to the figures most fans want them to or think that they can without attendance increasing. With this leaked information coming out, fans might finally come to this realization. I also spent time trying to debunk myths that some random owner can and will sink their Billions into payroll that the team itself isn't generating, hasn't generated and shows no signs of generating soon. That won't happen. That doesn't happen, at least not without a firm belief that the money can be made back. Ron Burkle wasn't doing it with the Pittsburgh Penguins, nobody should expect Bob Nutting to do it with the Pittsburgh Pirates. It's time for fans and the media to stop trying to concoct Get Rich Schemes for the Pittsburgh Pirates. It's simple, buy one of the league's cheapest tickets and go down to Major league Baseball's best ball park more often.

    None of this discusses the type of product the Pirates put on the field, the 18 straight losing seasons, the incompetent Management performed by Dave Littlefield and Cam Bonifay. So please, anyone responding try to stick to the actual topic. This was more about trying to make some type of sense to people that had questions. Questions about how the Pirates could possibly increase their payroll in the future when they don't have the profits to do it now. An explanation with some facts backing it up to debunk the ignorant cries and rants from the Pittsburgh and National Media. From the ignorant cries and rants from people that call themselves fans who only want something to complain about.

    If the product the Pittsburgh Pirates are putting out disgusts you and makes your eyes bleed, then don't follow them and don't support them. Just don't complain about the level where payroll is and attempt to call ownership cheap. You lost that right refusing to support them.

    EDIT : After having a conversation this morning there appears to be a misconception of the article. The question in response is, "why should I help pay for a product that sucks". If you look directly above this Edit you'll see as part of the original Article the answer to that question. I made mention that this Article had nothing to do with the actual product. It discusses more about the question of how the Pirates can increase payroll when their profits weren't much according to 2009's leaked figures.

    The Title alludes to the fact that the Pittsburgh Pirates are going to have to pay for their talent. It won't continue to remain young and not at arb eligibility. Pieces will have to be obtained and it all costs money. Money that is going to have to come from an increase in Attendance, so if you want to see a winning team, you have to support it.
    Last edited by Kipper; Feb-27-2015 at 08:27 AM.
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


  2. #2
    BigBen2112's Avatar
    Status : BigBen2112 is offline
    Rank : Hall Of Famer
    Join Date : Oct 13, 2009
    Posts : 5,773
    Threads : 135
    Last Online : Jun-03-2014 @ 02:44 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Great article and great analysis Kip.

    You know me and I certainly am not going to try to distort or misrepresent numbers. However, I will say that even the explanations that Nutting and Coonley gave for the "profits" or whatever they are to be called...are less than complete for my liking. I am not sure that I necessarily even NEED to know (and that's a completely different question...whether the public does/should even know these figures). I DO find it unsettling, though, that the team has any "profits" when they get a considerable amount of money from other teams. If we need that much money we should not be making a "profit".

    What does this all tell me? 1) that Nutting is a decent business man LOL and 2) the method of dispersing and monitoring the revenue sharing money etc is flawed. Now, I WILL say, that the Pirates cannot be expected to receive a check for (we'll say) 35M from other teams and immediately find a way to spend that on the roster...but it is at least ethically troubling that we "pocket" any money (if that is paying down debt or whatever) at other teams' expense.

    I know you wont take this response the wrong way...its just that as I think about what actually has transpired there is a "bad taste" in my mouth about it all.
    Hidden Content
    "Like I always say, there's no 'I' in team. There's a 'me,' though, if you jumble it all up."--House

  3. #3
    CROSSBONES's Avatar
    Status : CROSSBONES is offline
    Rank : All-Pro
    Join Date : Oct 17, 2009
    Posts : 4,412
    Threads : 215
    Last Online : Aug-15-2016 @ 06:32 PM

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Well Kipper, I'm still ****ed about the rip off pirates deal they gave to at least one area high school's discount card. It is a buy one, get one free stub (tickets) on the card. You have to actually show up bearing this stub to get the tickets. They can't cost more than $20.00. I could live with the maximum value of the ticket somewhat, but when I give this stub away, that person is probably wanting to go to a fireworks night. It could be sold out of cheap seats and they would have showed up, after a long drive, for nothing. Why can't the person just buy the 2 for 1 by phone or online like everyone else. In many cases, the seats would land on my credit card and I would be paid back at a later date. I usually do not give stuff to people that can do this on their own. I give this stuff to people that need that real bargain to enable them to even attend a game. They probably would by a dog and Coke while there too. I wish I had a phone number to call and explain this to the Pirates. They have not made good will with this deal!

  4. #4
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by CROSSBONES View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Well Kipper, I'm still ****ed about the rip off pirates deal they gave to at least one area high school's discount card. It is a buy one, get one free stub (tickets) on the card. You have to actually show up bearing this stub to get the tickets. They can't cost more than $20.00. I could live with the maximum value of the ticket somewhat, but when I give this stub away, that person is probably wanting to go to a fireworks night. It could be sold out of cheap seats and they would have showed up, after a long drive, for nothing. Why can't the person just buy the 2 for 1 by phone or online like everyone else. In many cases, the seats would land on my credit card and I would be paid back at a later date. I usually do not give stuff to people that can do this on their own. I give this stuff to people that need that real bargain to enable them to even attend a game. They probably would by a dog and Coke while there too. I wish I had a phone number to call and explain this to the Pirates. They have not made good will with this deal!
    Well hell Crossbones That's a little bit different. Be ****ed all you want

    Still ****ed off at MLB?
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


  5. #5
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBen2112 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Great article and great analysis Kip.

    You know me and I certainly am not going to try to distort or misrepresent numbers. However, I will say that even the explanations that Nutting and Coonley gave for the "profits" or whatever they are to be called...are less than complete for my liking. I am not sure that I necessarily even NEED to know (and that's a completely different question...whether the public does/should even know these figures). I DO find it unsettling, though, that the team has any "profits" when they get a considerable amount of money from other teams. If we need that much money we should not be making a "profit".

    Not sure where you have an issue. Businesses and owners have to pay taxes. It's common. This is normal. The loan was put back into the club as equity, so I'm not sure whats bad about that.

    There's going to be some profits right now especially with the team in a rebuild. Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, Cleveland etc... all saw low payrolls during rebuilding years mainly because the best players are young, cheap and a a couple to few years shy of arb eligible. this rings true for the Pirates. So there should be some profits made just by simple 1+1 deductions

    It's troubling that in 2009 we only saw a $5 million profit with where the payroll was


    What does this all tell me? 1) that Nutting is a decent business man LOL and 2) the method of dispersing and monitoring the revenue sharing money etc is flawed. Now, I WILL say, that the Pirates cannot be expected to receive a check for (we'll say) 35M from other teams and immediately find a way to spend that on the roster...but it is at least ethically troubling that we "pocket" any money (if that is paying down debt or whatever) at other teams' expense.

    There's no pocketing of any money. Nobody is taking money from the organization for their own private fun. all of the money is going back towards the team in one way or another. Maybe it's not all in payroll but there's various expenses and issues that need to be met as well. It all costs money/

    I liked the one explanation for Revenue Sharing I read earlier today where it was one's belief that Revenue Sharing was put in to prevent teams from going bankrupt more than anything and it's got an interesting point. Either way, money is being dispersed from larger market teams to smaller and mid market teams to simply help them stay afloat. The Pirates aren't doing anything with that money that doesn't fall within those lines.


    I know you wont take this response the wrong way...its just that as I think about what actually has transpired there is a "bad taste" in my mouth about it all.
    I'm the opposite. I love everything about this stuff being leaked. I like that its something substantial to show that nobody is stuffing their pockets and that the Pirates aren't sitting on this cash cow that they can break open to increase payroll to ridiculous amounts. I love that by leaking the Pirates, Rays Marlins, Angels, rangers, Mariners (I think thats all ive seen so far) that this will make the upcoming CBA discussions very interesting. I didn't know until today that all of the ball clubs don't see or can't see all of the exact financial statements and stuff from any team out there. they sort of get summaries.

    anything to help blow up this **** poor economic platform in MLB the better
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


  6. #6
    CROSSBONES's Avatar
    Status : CROSSBONES is offline
    Rank : All-Pro
    Join Date : Oct 17, 2009
    Posts : 4,412
    Threads : 215
    Last Online : Aug-15-2016 @ 06:32 PM

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    ****ed off enough that I nixed helping to organize a bus trip and I will not be attending more games this year. If they can't even get a basic marketing principle right, why should I bother? I would like to jump back on the attendance bandwagon, but their marketing needs to get it right. This coupon/stub should be easy to use, not an inconvenient, bull**** non deal.

    If it's the Pirates or MLB, there is a problem!

  7. #7
    CROSSBONES's Avatar
    Status : CROSSBONES is offline
    Rank : All-Pro
    Join Date : Oct 17, 2009
    Posts : 4,412
    Threads : 215
    Last Online : Aug-15-2016 @ 06:32 PM

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    I can't support your argument until mine is fixed.

  8. #8
    moneytalks's Avatar
    Status : moneytalks is offline
    Rank : Minor Leaguer
    Join Date : Oct 11, 2009
    Location : Pittsburgh
    Posts : 678
    Threads : 22
    Last Online : Oct-15-2012 @ 01:28 PM

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    I love quotes from ex-Pirates. Like they over-performed when they were here.

    This is from Smiziks last blog post (sticking up for them once)

    Jose Bautista, who the Pirates traded in August of 2008 in a deal that got little attention at the time, is the player most quoted by the AP.

    Bautista said, ``We had a great team on the field. We felt like we could have benefited from improving our pitching staff. They went with rookies on the pitching staff and that wasn't necessarily a recipe for success. We thought that we could have benefited from getting a couple of good veterans, proven major league starting pitchers. They didn't feel the need to go out and spend that money. For whatever reason, they decided not to and we lost a lot of games."
    Some of the quotes from other players:

    Nady: ``It's a good city and a good sports town. I feel like they deserve a winning team. We had a good group of guys and then they slowly dismantled everybody."

    Nyjer Morgan, traded in 2009: "It's [bad] for the fans because they're great fans there."
    Matt Capps, non-tendered after the 2009 season: "You look at the names they traded away, the names that walked away. You wouldn't be human if you didn't dream about what could have been there, especially with that city, the passion, the ballpark there. A winning team in that town would [make for] one of the best places in baseball to play. It's hard not to dream and think about what could have been."
    Edit... other than Bay .. is there really ONE person the Pirates got rid of that was a mistake? Seems like most (if not all) of them didn't really go on to have stellar careers when they were traded.

    Bautista sucked until this year, and you have to think something is up.
    Last edited by moneytalks; Aug-26-2010 at 05:39 AM.

  9. #9
    CROSSBONES's Avatar
    Status : CROSSBONES is offline
    Rank : All-Pro
    Join Date : Oct 17, 2009
    Posts : 4,412
    Threads : 215
    Last Online : Aug-15-2016 @ 06:32 PM

    Default

    It is true that attendance, and therefore concessions, are still a basic requirement to bring in the revenues to help pay salaries and other expenses. The Pirates could very well be a minor league team if there were no help from other teams.

    When I had partial season tickets at Three Rivers, in the front row of the yellow seats,between first and third, there were many in attendance. The team competed at a higher level then.

    The Pirates simply need some grassroots marketing, to get there.

    Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
    Remember, that which hath not killed you, will try again...................

  10. #10
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by CROSSBONES View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I can't support your argument until mine is fixed.
    But your argument and mine are different. You aren't sitting back *****ing about how much payroll is, claiming that funds are pocketed, assuming while whining about it that we should be spending millions mroe than we have etc...

    You're just ****ed off about coupon/stubs
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


  11. #11
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by CROSSBONES View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It is true that attendance, and therefore concessions, are still a basic requirement to bring in the revenues to help pay salaries and other expenses. The Pirates could very well be a minor league team if there were no help from other teams.

    When I had partial season tickets at Three Rivers, in the front row of the yellow seats,between first and third, there were many in attendance. The team competed at a higher level then.

    The Pirates simply need some grassroots marketing, to get there.

    Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
    The Pirates attendance at Three Rivers Stadium was woeful but that was during a time where teams like the Yankees or Red Sox weren't buying up every last ounce of talent etc... It was a completely different time and era then.... Today, you definitely need that attendance revenue, even if there were a Salary Cap, the Pirates could never spend near the cap ceiling without a big increase in attendance, just like the Pittsburgh Penguins had to wait on doing it..

    Getting back to the original statement, even during a World Series year in 1979 the Pirates were only pulling in an average of 17,772 per game. That's LOWER than todays average ..

    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/pitatte.shtml

    One thing that concerns me is that outside of the novelty of a new ballpark the Pirates attendance has really only peaked at around the 2 million mark in 1990/91 for an average of about 25,000 fans per game. I'm sure there were more fans for important games and such than against crap teams then but still... it raises another question in wondering if whether Pittsburgh could ever support a team through the gate to drastically increase payroll to retain enough players to appease the general whiners...err fans and media? One thing that will definitely have to happen for the Pirates once they start winning and show some promise and such is ticket prices that have remained flat for years (and rightfully so) at PNc Park are going to have to increase
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


  12. #12
    Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
    Status : Mister Pittsburgh is offline
    Rank : Major Leaguer
    Join Date : Oct 16, 2009
    Posts : 1,383
    Threads : 122
    Last Online : Apr-27-2013 @ 05:09 PM

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Nice article Kipper. Good research and information. I guess my problem with the general idea of going to pay for tickets is a requirement for the Pirates to THEN go out and up payroll. I think it has to be the other way around. Nutting is going to have to take a risk.

    The voice didn't say 'They will come, hand you 5 bucks to look at a cornfield, so you can then build it. The voice said 'Build it and they will come'. Ray took a risk and built it, and they came.

    Nobody goes into a ****ty store with ****ty products on the shelves and buys the ****ty products because the owner of the store says if people buy the ****ty products he will be able to buy better ones.

  13. #13
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Pittsburgh View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Nice article Kipper. Good research and information. I guess my problem with the general idea of going to pay for tickets is a requirement for the Pirates to THEN go out and up payroll. I think it has to be the other way around. Nutting is going to have to take a risk.

    The voice didn't say 'They will come, hand you 5 bucks to look at a cornfield, so you can then build it. The voice said 'Build it and they will come'. Ray took a risk and built it, and they came.

    Nobody goes into a ****ty store with ****ty products on the shelves and buys the ****ty products because the owner of the store says if people buy the ****ty products he will be able to buy better ones.
    Nutting isn't going to take a risk. Owners don't. Billionaire ron Burkle wasn't taking a risk as he sat on his billions and oversaw the lowest payroll in the NHL...

    This is why management is so important. It's why IMO the role of ownership is often blown completely out of proportion. The entire organization really relies on Management. It's been poor management by Kevin McClatchy as CEO, Cam Bonifay, Dave Littlefield that have cause the Pirates to lose for 18 years straight, not lack of money or some ownership myths. Heck, the closest the Pirates have come to competing in the past 18 years came when we had a $9 million payroll which is far lower than any payroll I can remember in the past 20 years)

    Management has to build the team/product that people are going to want to buy. So in a way, yes the product has to come first because people won't support losing but when the team starts winning, it's going to depend on the fans as to how much of that winning they want retained because it'll be the attendance figures that are going to make the difference between $50 million and $90 million. If there's only enough support to increase payroll into the $60 million range, well then, we can't retain all of the good players and sacrifices have to be made.

    No small market team owner is investing their own money into payroll before a team proves it can win at least. Debatable whether it's invested at all
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


  14. #14
    CROSSBONES's Avatar
    Status : CROSSBONES is offline
    Rank : All-Pro
    Join Date : Oct 17, 2009
    Posts : 4,412
    Threads : 215
    Last Online : Aug-15-2016 @ 06:32 PM

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But your argument and mine are different. You aren't sitting back *****ing about how much payroll is, claiming that funds are pocketed, assuming while whining about it that we should be spending millions mroe than we have etc...

    I'm talking about one of the many ways to reach the fans, that spend the money, to build the house that Nuttings building. Then said Pirates may be able to spend some more and begin an upward spiral.

    You're just ****ed off about coupon/stubs


    Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
    Remember, that which hath not killed you, will try again...................

  15. #15
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Want A Winner? Then Support The Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by CROSSBONES View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
    No doubt... There's always those types of issues that surface. Stupid *** employees are all around. Personally I'm surprised you're having the time you are having. Everyone we've dealt with in regards to the Pirates have been excellent. I think that NKy had a nice experience with them.... the Steelers on the other hand
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •