Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: You think 4 or 5 more years?

      
  1. #1
    Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
    Status : Mister Pittsburgh is offline
    Rank : Major Leaguer
    Join Date : Oct 16, 2009
    Posts : 1,383
    Threads : 122
    Last Online : Apr-27-2013 @ 05:09 PM

    Default You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Question for all you more knowledgable Pirates fans. If you had a gun to your head and had to guess....do you think it is another 4 or 5 years of drafting/developing players before we would have a playoff caliber MLB team, along with a gapless minor league system unlike we have now?

    We are 3 years deep into this current regimes 'plan', 4th offseason, and I pretty much feel like phase 1 of the plan has been a fairly large failure. Tabata & Oehlendorff are the only useful parts we have received in the unloading of the team they took over, and that is out of a plethora of players NH & his revamped scouts evaluated and received. Sure, there are a couple more guys in the minors from those trades that still need some time, but what we have seen so far is a major letdown.

    There isn't really anyone beating down the door at AAA at the moment as they have been brought up. The next closest players are at AA, probably another full year in the minors from even making their debut. Most of the high school arms we drafted are still in A, low A, or haven't even begun their minor league careers.

    You gotta figure even once those guys can climb the ladder and make their debut, they will need time to adjust and become actual MLB players.

    So in your estimation, when is the timeframe that most of you would feel comfortable evaluating what this regime has done and say they were either successful or failures? When can this group be fairly evaluated without excuses?

  2. #2
    PittFaninVa's Avatar
    Status : PittFaninVa is offline
    Rank : All-Star
    Join Date : Oct 28, 2009
    Posts : 2,433
    Threads : 94
    Last Online : Jun-07-2011 @ 10:03 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Pittsburgh View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Question for all you more knowledgable Pirates fans. If you had a gun to your head and had to guess....do you think it is another 4 or 5 years of drafting/developing players before we would have a playoff caliber MLB team, along with a gapless minor league system unlike we have now?
    If it takes 4 or 5 more years to be competitive and the current management team is still in place then this organization is a complete and absolute joke! I would hope in 2012 you will see some real signs of a competitive team. Also no organization has a "gapless minor league system"

    We are 3 years deep into this current regimes 'plan', 4th offseason, and I pretty much feel like phase 1 of the plan has been a fairly large failure. Tabata & Oehlendorff are the only useful parts we have received in the unloading of the team they took over, and that is out of a plethora of players NH & his revamped scouts evaluated and received. Sure, there are a couple more guys in the minors from those trades that still need some time, but what we have seen so far is a major letdown.
    Several of the ML scouts were kept from the DL era particularly Doug Strange.

    There isn't really anyone beating down the door at AAA at the moment as they have been brought up. The next closest players are at AA, probably another full year in the minors from even making their debut. Most of the high school arms we drafted are still in A, low A, or haven't even begun their minor league careers.
    The organization just graduated several players from AAA last year. The farm system is finally starting to produce. There could be many players on the AAA team this year who could see action in Pittsburgh.
    Last edited by PittFaninVa; Dec-11-2010 at 04:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Kipper's Avatar
    Status : Kipper is offline
    Rank : Legend
    Join Date : Oct 8, 2009
    Posts : 67,323
    Threads : 1817
    Last Online : Apr-25-2017 @ 08:36 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If it takes 4 or 5 more years to be competitive and the current management team is still in place then this organization is a complete and absolute joke! I would hope in 2012 you will see some real signs of a competitive team. Also no organization has a "gapless minor league system"



    Several of the ML scouts were kept from the DL era particularly Doug Strange.



    The organization just graduated several players from AAA last year. The farm system is finally starting to produce. There could be many players on the AAA team this year who could see action in Pittsburgh.
    They key to me is what you said in your first quote response in that we shoudl see some real signs of a competitive team in 2012. Competitive doesn't mean a good or great team, but the trend for the Pirates should be upward and improvement over last year. A building of the steps further upwards.

    If we don't see this by seasons end then you have to really start questioning Huntington, not for the plan but for the talent evaluation and scouting which IMO at this pint are the defining factors of this current regime
    The Standard Is The Standard and The Pittsburgh Sports Forum Is The Standard


  4. #4
    carney2's Avatar
    Status : carney2 is offline
    Rank : Bench Warmer
    Join Date : Sep 1, 2010
    Posts : 271
    Threads : 35
    Last Online : Dec-28-2015 @ 12:29 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    My crystal ball says that when the final chapters of "Trying to Cope in a Small Market" are written, the Pirates will have the cover and a big chunk of the between the covers commentary. It ain't looking good. Consider:

    1. An owner that wants "fair value" and depends on "internal valuations" in negotiating contracts.

    2. A management team that has shown persistent inability to evaluate talent.

    3. Although some Indianapolis Indians may be able to advance into the void that is Pittsburgh baseball in the foreseeable future, there is little doubt that the best fruit has already been pruned from that tree.

    4. Given their history, there seems little doubt that Pirates management will "solve" their pitching dilemma by biding their time until what appears to be tremendous talent way down in the minors develops. Given the way these things go, and given the fact that this generation has already seen its Stephen Strasburg - a guy who can step in and contribute on day one, the pitching talent should be ready to contribute at just about the same time that the "building blocks" (McCutcheon, Alvarez and (?)) are moving to teams that are willing to pay.

    5. Right now - and for the foreseeable future - the Pirates need (in no particular order) a catcher, 1st baseman, right fielder, shortstop, and a whole lot of pitching. In addition, Neil Walker had a nice part of a year at second, but to definitively say "he's the answer" may be a bit premature. Given the way this team operates and evaluates talent, you have to ask where all of these pieces are going to come from.

    Come back here in ten years and two things will be certain:

    Somehow, and at some time, the Pirates will have broken their 19-20-21 consecutive season losing streak. They will do enough to get this done.

    And

    At no time during that decade will our Buccos be a legitimate contender.

    All of this, says my crystal ball, is certain unless there are changes at the top, including ownership.

  5. #5
    PittFaninVa's Avatar
    Status : PittFaninVa is offline
    Rank : All-Star
    Join Date : Oct 28, 2009
    Posts : 2,433
    Threads : 94
    Last Online : Jun-07-2011 @ 10:03 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    @ carney...I don't believe the owner is looking at internal value. This particular management choice is enacted a step lower in the chain of command. Nutting approves the budget FC and NH decide how the money is spent.

    ……also the best fruit hasn't been mined out of the minors...most of the holes you have identified could be on the way this year and next.

  6. #6
    carney2's Avatar
    Status : carney2 is offline
    Rank : Bench Warmer
    Join Date : Sep 1, 2010
    Posts : 271
    Threads : 35
    Last Online : Dec-28-2015 @ 12:29 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    I agree, PFV, that the "internal value" calculations and even the decisions are being made at the Huntington/Coonelly level, but they work for ownership. If they weren't doing what was expected of them, they would be gone. Harry Truman knew where the bones were buried: "the buck stops here" - and "here" is Nutting in this case.

    As for all of those pieces lined up down on the farm, exactly who are you referring to? The only name that springs immediately to mind is Sanchez and there persist some opinions that he will be no better than average at the major league level. (Personally, I think/hope he'll be better than that, but...) Besides, he will get his first shot in the bigs in 2012 - if then, after losing most of 2010. Then the two year acclimation/learning curve,... Beyond that, I don't think you are talking about guys who are projected to perform in the top 50% at their position when/if they get to PNC. So, exactly where is all of this contender capable talent?

    A "contender" will not be built with McCutcheon, Alvarez, maybe Tabata and a bunch of guys who perform in the bottom 50% of players at their position. The Pirates will need to go outside of the organization for talent. At this moment do you see how that can happen? Players with talent view Pittsburgh as baseball's equivalent of Siberia. On the other side, you have a bunch of somewhat empty suits looking for "value." Tell me how this will work out.
    Last edited by carney2; Dec-12-2010 at 03:10 PM.

  7. #7
    PittFaninVa's Avatar
    Status : PittFaninVa is offline
    Rank : All-Star
    Join Date : Oct 28, 2009
    Posts : 2,433
    Threads : 94
    Last Online : Jun-07-2011 @ 10:03 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    @carney I don't believe they are "doing what was expected of them" ...NH and FC have a budget to operate in and they are trying to squeeze the most out of it.

    As for the prospects lining up ......

    pitchers.........Wilson, Morris and Owens could all see some time in Pittsburgh this year...Locke probably next year.

    catcher...Sanchez

    SS.....D'Arnaud, Mercer, Ciriaco

    RF...Lambo, Marte

  8. #8
    DCBILL's Avatar
    Status : DCBILL is offline
    Rank : 1st Stringer
    Join Date : Oct 18, 2009
    Posts : 1,787
    Threads : 277
    Last Online : May-06-2013 @ 07:41 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    PFV--Not just because I've been on this case, but my answer is "no."

    Some people seem out of place in the positions they hold and BN is one.

    I don't see him ever spending big dollars--for FAs--to complement whatever is developed in the minors.

    We discussed--at least exchanged posts--on where the Club is short in the minors. I don't see that changing dramatically, save some of the pitchers possibly making it and--again--that 3 or four years away, at best.

    How do you think the national media, local residents/fans, and MLB are going to react when the Nuttings have presided over 21 or 22 consecutive losing seasons?

    Bob Nutting doesn't have the money (I won't say he's cheap, just that he can't afford it) to run a major league baseball franchise and make it a winner, despite the fact that he has "the best management team in baseball" under contract!!

    I know that blind squirrels find nuts some of the time, but leopards also don't change their spots and BN has low balling loser written all over him.

    You know, sometimes a "cigar is just a cigar" and--while he has defenders--so many people believe that Nutting is tight and even penurious. It just might well be true that the Bucs have a cheap owner.
    Last edited by DCBILL; Dec-12-2010 at 04:10 PM. Reason: typos

  9. #9
    PittFaninVa's Avatar
    Status : PittFaninVa is offline
    Rank : All-Star
    Join Date : Oct 28, 2009
    Posts : 2,433
    Threads : 94
    Last Online : Jun-07-2011 @ 10:03 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DCBILL View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    [HIGH-LIGHT]PFV--Not just because I've been on this case, but my answer is "no."[/HIGH-LIGHT]Some people seem out of place in the positions they hold and BN is one.

    I don't see him ever spending big dollars--for FAs--to complement whatever is developed in the minors.

    We discussed--at least exchanged posts--on where the Club is short in the minors. I don't see that changing dramatically, save some of the pitchers possibly making it and--again--that 3 or four years away, at best.

    How do you think the national media, local residents/fans, and MLB are going to react when the Nuttings have presided over 21 or 22 consecutive losing seasons?

    Bob Nutting doesn't have the money (I won't say he's cheap, just that he can't afford it) to run a major league baseball franchise and make it a winner, despite the fact that he has "the best management team in baseball" under contract!!

    I know that blind squirrels find nuts some of the time, but leopards also don't change their spots and BN has low balling loser written all over him.

    You know, sometimes a "cigar is just a cigar" and--while he has defenders--so many people believe that Nutting is tight and even penurious. It just might well be true that the Bucs have a cheap owner.

    Sorry DCBILL but what was the question?

  10. #10
    carney2's Avatar
    Status : carney2 is offline
    Rank : Bench Warmer
    Join Date : Sep 1, 2010
    Posts : 271
    Threads : 35
    Last Online : Dec-28-2015 @ 12:29 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by PittFaninVa View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    As for the prospects lining up ......

    pitchers.........Wilson, Morris and Owens could all see some time in Pittsburgh this year...Locke probably next year.

    catcher...Sanchez

    SS.....D'Arnaud, Mercer, Ciriaco

    RF...Lambo, Marte
    Sorry, but my read is that the pitchers you name are, maybe, middle of the rotation guys, with the top prospects not yet in AA. As for the others, Sanchez, as I said before, has a shot, and only Lambo of the remainder can be called "high ceiling." Since he (Lambo) comes with baggage, he will be a question mark until he actually "makes it." As has been said many times, not a lot there after all of that wheeling and dealing.

  11. #11
    just_ridin's Avatar
    Status : just_ridin is offline
    Rank : Bench Warmer
    Join Date : Mar 4, 2010
    Location : Chicago
    Posts : 439
    Threads : 18
    Last Online : Oct-10-2013 @ 12:11 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by carney2 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Sorry, but my read is that the pitchers you name are, maybe, middle of the rotation guys, with the top prospects not yet in AA. As for the others, Sanchez, as I said before, has a shot, and only Lambo of the remainder can be called "high ceiling." Since he (Lambo) comes with baggage, he will be a question mark until he actually "makes it." As has been said many times, not a lot there after all of that wheeling and dealing.
    There wasn't alot here before all the wheeling and dealing....you make it sound like we traded away perennial all-stars?

  12. #12
    just_ridin's Avatar
    Status : just_ridin is offline
    Rank : Bench Warmer
    Join Date : Mar 4, 2010
    Location : Chicago
    Posts : 439
    Threads : 18
    Last Online : Oct-10-2013 @ 12:11 PM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DCBILL View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Bob Nutting doesn't have the money (I won't say he's cheap, just that he can't afford it) to run a major league baseball franchise and make it a winner, despite the fact that he has "the best management team in baseball" under contract!!
    I'm not sure what you're thinking is possible here...that someone Like Mark Cuban should own the team so it could spend $120-130 mil on salary? When the talk was that he was trying to offer for the buccos, Cuban came out and said the max payroll would be 70-80 mil...that's all this franchise could spend and not be losing shirts-off-backs.

    If you're holding out "if only's" in terms of BN selling the team and someone coming in and handing out Crawford or Werth contracts then you're more than sadly mistaken...you're delusional.

  13. #13
    carney2's Avatar
    Status : carney2 is offline
    Rank : Bench Warmer
    Join Date : Sep 1, 2010
    Posts : 271
    Threads : 35
    Last Online : Dec-28-2015 @ 12:29 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by just_ridin View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There wasn't alot here before all the wheeling and dealing....you make it sound like we traded away perennial all-stars?
    We traded, and we traded, and we traded, but we still have a poorly stocked pantry. Wasn't the idea to build the system? I realize it's better than we had in Littlefield's final year, but his isn't the kind of progress we hoped for - and with trading pieces now at a premium, where do we go from here?

  14. #14
    PittFaninVa's Avatar
    Status : PittFaninVa is offline
    Rank : All-Star
    Join Date : Oct 28, 2009
    Posts : 2,433
    Threads : 94
    Last Online : Jun-07-2011 @ 10:03 PM

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by carney2 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Sorry, but my read is that the pitchers you name are, maybe, middle of the rotation guys, with the top prospects not yet in AA. As for the others, Sanchez, as I said before, has a shot, and only Lambo of the remainder can be called "high ceiling." Since he (Lambo) comes with baggage, he will be a question mark until he actually "makes it." As has been said many times, not a lot there after all of that wheeling and dealing.
    All the players I mentioned should play in the big leagues…..that’s all you can hope for as an organization. How good will they be….we’ll see. Nothing is guaranteed in baseball.

    You asked for players on the horizon that can help the Pirates I provided several names. All these players have had success in the minors and until they stumble they have a chance to help the ML team. Just because they don’t measure up to your expectations doesn’t diminish their prospect status.

  15. #15
    indybucfan's Avatar
    Status : indybucfan is offline
    Rank : Major Leaguer
    Join Date : Oct 16, 2009
    Posts : 1,226
    Threads : 45
    Last Online : Feb-11-2015 @ 07:42 AM
    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: You think 4 or 5 more years?

    Quote Originally Posted by carney2 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    We traded, and we traded, and we traded, but we still have a poorly stocked pantry. Wasn't the idea to build the system? I realize it's better than we had in Littlefield's final year, but his isn't the kind of progress we hoped for - and with trading pieces now at a premium, where do we go from here?
    I don't know why people continue to believe, the players traded for were supposed to be saviors? What Huntington did was trade for place holders until the system could be built from within. I think when the offers were lacking, he got what prospects he could, and he chose to take risks with players who were once potential stars but had their prospects dimmed. Could he have done better on some of these trades? Hell, no GM has a sterling record in trades. Some work, some don't. The only trade that's been a dud so far has been the Bay trade. They still have Morris who could pan out. This rebuild has been painful to watch, but hopefully, we will have a competitive organization here in a few years that competes more often than not.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •