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Thread: Is it the player or the system ?

      
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    Default Is it the player or the system ?

    We keep speaking about we need better corners a better secondary.

    Is it that the guys are not talented or is it the Lebeau scheme or system ?

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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    I imagine it is a little bit of both. You have to continuously tweek the system to fit the skill of the available talent. To expect the backups to play to the levels of the starters is unrealistic. LeBeau has done an outstanding job, but the talent is getting older and you can only tweek so much before you have to look at replacing the talent. The Steelers are now at that point. Question is where is it most effective to start.
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    I believe the Steelers will be a Super Bowl contender next season. What concerns me is,the last two Super Bowl champs,Saints/Packers are exactly the kind of teams the Steelers struggle against,meaning teams with a smart accurate Q.B. who gets the ball out quickly and are 4-5 deep in wideouts.
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BATMAN View Post
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    We keep speaking about we need better corners a better secondary.

    Is it that the guys are not talented or is it the Lebeau scheme or system ?
    It shouldn't be the system. LeBeau's system was designed to stop the West coat Offense which was a high efficiency spread. Don Coryell's offenses were very similar. The run n shoot was practically a spread offense that we saw the Oilers run and then Atlanta ran for some time

    People act like we just started seeing the spread offense in recent years but we've been seeing it for decades now. It changes here and there but so do defenses but the roots are all the same.

    Ike Taylor had a pretty good day IMO covering the Packers best WR. The only time it looked like Ike had trouble was when he was expecting safety help and didn't get it. If Ike Taylor can cover Greg Jennings then surely your 2nd CB should be able to cover Jordy Nelson?

    The Steelers basically pl;ay a cover-2 zone. It's a pretty typical set up. The whole basis for the defense is really to try and confuse quarterbacks but you stil need to do the basic job such as covering WR's. It doesnt matter if you are 10 yards off the WR or not, a DB isn't supposed to just run with a player, he is supposed to read the players, read the QB, know the WR routes.. thats what seperates the good ones from the bad ones and the good days and plays from the bad ones. Case in point, Troy's TD given up to Greg Jennings. He bit on a poor assumption of the route Jennings took. Troy went inside and Jennings went outside. 6 points.
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    A couple points of interest in this discussion:

    1. The Steelers powerful offense, coupled with the inability to run against the D, is naturally going to produce sizable numbers (stats) against out pass defense......these stats are somewhat misleading!.....If you can't run against the Steelers, and you are behind, you sort of have to pass!

    2. Although I often hate Taylor and Gay, their job is not easy when we put 8-9 in the box and blitz a great deal. A shut down corner would make this D impenetrable!

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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by buccoray61 View Post
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    I believe the Steelers will be a Super Bowl contender next season. What concerns me is,the last two Super Bowl champs,Saints/Packers are exactly the kind of teams the Steelers struggle against,meaning teams with a smart accurate Q.B. who gets the ball out quickly and are 4-5 deep in wideouts.
    Think about it also...

    eliminate 3 turnovers, which is 6 points and 2 short fields of about 50 yards each and defensively we held the Packers to 10 points. The Packers only had 2 long drives all game long. Their first scoring drive and their last. Had we not turned the ball over like the Green Bay Packers managed to do, momentum and hope doesn't shift and I don't see the Packers throwing up 31. Well they definitely dont throw up 31 without the pick 6

    With LeBeau's defense it's really not about yardage. It's designed to give up yardage, it's designed to force tough situations. The Steelers actually forced the Packers into quite a few 3rd and longs, which is what was wanted and unfortunately, we were letting the Packers convert on those.

    If there's one problem I have with the Steelers defense from a scheme point is that it's designed to bend so far that we cant defense shorter fields (not with DB personnel we have), not against the better offenses in the league at least
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    Think about it also...

    eliminate 3 turnovers, which is 6 points and 2 short fields of about 50 yards each and defensively we held the Packers to 10 points. The Packers only had 2 long drives all game long. Their first scoring drive and their last. Had we not turned the ball over like the Green Bay Packers managed to do, momentum and hope doesn't shift and I don't see the Packers throwing up 31. Well they definitely dont throw up 31 without the pick 6

    With LeBeau's defense it's really not about yardage. It's designed to give up yardage, it's designed to force tough situations. The Steelers actually forced the Packers into quite a few 3rd and longs, which is what was wanted and unfortunately, we were letting the Packers convert on those.

    If there's one problem I have with the Steelers defense from a scheme point is that it's designed to bend so far that we cant defense shorter fields (not with DB personnel we have), not against the better offenses in the league at least
    Another thought?

    It drives me insane when the DB's are running around yelling at each other when the ball is snapped.....this is what happened on the fade route TD where Troy had to come from the other side of the field to try to defend it.

    Whatever our D is going to do, they need to decide on it sooner as this happened waaaaaaaay too much this year!

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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
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    A couple points of interest in this discussion:

    1. The Steelers powerful offense, coupled with the inability to run against the D, is naturally going to produce sizable numbers (stats) against out pass defense......these stats are somewhat misleading!.....If you can't run against the Steelers, and you are behind, you sort of have to pass!

    2. Although I often hate Taylor and Gay, their job is not easy when we put 8-9 in the box and blitz a great deal. A shut down corner would make this D impenetrable!
    Against 4-5 wide sets we weren't stacking the box against the run. We sold out to the pass in that game. Look at the YPC the Packers were gaining when they did run. Combined with the fact that their run game wasn't really good and fro0m a matchup perspective they had Jordy Nelson flat out abusing Gay and McFadden... you have to pass

    I thought Taylor had a good game covering Jennings. Taylor has faced better WR's so that helped. Although I'd love a shutdown corner, I'd easily take another Ike Taylor, even with the inability to pick passes. His coverage is good and that's something we lacked opposite Ike
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
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    Another thought?

    It drives me insane when the DB's are running around yelling at each other when the ball is snapped.....this is what happened on the fade route TD where Troy had to come from the other side of the field to try to defend it.

    Whatever our D is going to do, they need to decide on it sooner as this happened waaaaaaaay too much this year!
    Troy if I'm not correct is the one calling out the defense for the secondary, so that's all him. The yelling, confusion if it looks like that.. that should be on Troy but this is also something that seems to be the norm. They've been doing this for years going back to the Cowher years
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    I believe it's a little bit of both. I think the rest of the league has seen enough of DL's zone blitz that it's not as overwhelming as it once was. The reason I say that is you hardly see any surprise or free routes to the QB. Most of the sacks come from individual efforts and time provided by the coverage. Good O-lines seem to hold up well against us, which further shows that we're not as confusing as many believe.

    That said, I still prefer the 3-4. You might compare us to PSU and call us the Linebacker University of the NFL. All in all, it comes down to personnel. If you don't have the players, no system works.

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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    With LeBeau's defense it's really not about yardage. It's designed to give up yardage, it's designed to force tough situations. The Steelers actually forced the Packers into quite a few 3rd and longs, which is what was wanted and unfortunately, we were letting the Packers convert on those.
    The packers 3rd and 10 late in the 4th the Steelers basically had 9 guys up on the line corners playing tight and jennings is able to get past Taylor and rodgers threads a perfect pass just out of Taylors reach.....if the corners played off the line maybe Taylor is in better position to defend that throw? Just asking..........
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambert5958 View Post
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    The packers 3rd and 10 late in the 4th the Steelers basically had 9 guys up on the line corners playing tight and jennings is able to get past Taylor and rodgers threads a perfect pass just out of Taylors reach.....if the corners played off the line maybe Taylor is in better position to defend that throw? Just asking..........
    Taylor played press for a lot of the game, it was the other side they had everyone off about 10 yards for the game.

    Just being up on the line doesn't mean they are strictly stuffing for the run either. The Stweelers, hell, most teams will disguise this often. They bring up 8-9, and then they drop as many and whoever back into coverage. If I remember correctly the play you're talking about, they had dropped enough back into coverage. I don't remember what the play was if someone else was supposed to be there or not. Would really have to watch the entire play again
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
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    If I remember correctly the play you're talking about, they had dropped enough back into coverage. I don't remember what the play was if someone else was supposed to be there or not. Would really have to watch the entire play again
    This was the 3rd and 10 the pack had at their own 25 late in the 4th, they then went on to kick the field goal.....I watched it this morning.....I was just surprised that they had 9 up, no one dropped back prior to the snap....so Troy and not sure who, playing deep....jennings was just able to easily get by Taylor who was playing him tight....then again it was a perfect pass...
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    That is the question I have been wondering....But face it Taylor is good...and the rest just aren't....
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    Default Re: Is it the player or the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambert5958 View Post
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    This was the 3rd and 10 the pack had at their own 25 late in the 4th, they then went on to kick the field goal.....I watched it this morning.....I was just surprised that they had 9 up, no one dropped back prior to the snap....so Troy and not sure who, playing deep....jennings was just able to easily get by Taylor who was playing him tight....then again it was a perfect pass...
    I remember the play happening but I dont remember how we were lined on the field and what was going on there.

    3rd and 10, we aren't playing the run. It could've been mroe of an all out blitz but again, Id have to see the play again
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